Covid-19 discussion, continued...

8,788 posts 20 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 8:25 AM
posted by jmog
People with 2 brain cells or more were fairly certain, >50% that it leaked from a lab from almost the beginning. 

Not according to any intelligence agency. The language they use is not even close to fairly certain. 

Look at the probability language they use and the various confidence levels of that language. 

QuakerOats Senior Member
11,701 posts 66 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 10:13 AM

Dr. Li Meng Yan stands by her claim that the CCP released the virus intentionally.  Pursuing the truth should be a high priority and should not stop until we have it.  Then we should pursue damages if appropriate. 

QuakerOats Senior Member
11,701 posts 66 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 1:51 PM

https://nypost.com/2023/02/27/turns-out-it-was-the-lab-leak-deniers-who-wore-the-tinfoil-hats/



"Americans still deserve the best answers the feds can give. Congressional Republicans are dead right to demand that Biden declassify all intel on this issue, stat, instead of letting it dribble out in half-hearted spurts. 

Get ready for most of the media to insist that full disclosure is somehow too dangerous. After all, they already look awful now that some of the truth is out there. "

Dr Winston O'Boogie Senior Member
3,345 posts 35 reps Joined Oct 2010
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 4:30 PM
posted by QuakerOats

https://nypost.com/2023/02/27/turns-out-it-was-the-lab-leak-deniers-who-wore-the-tinfoil-hats/



"Americans still deserve the best answers the feds can give. Congressional Republicans are dead right to demand that Biden declassify all intel on this issue, stat, instead of letting it dribble out in half-hearted spurts. 

Get ready for most of the media to insist that full disclosure is somehow too dangerous. After all, they already look awful now that some of the truth is out there. "

I think Biden and the government should share everything they know about the origins of Covid.


I don’t think most people were accusing anyone thinking it came from a Chinese lab as being part of the tinfoil hat crowd, so this isn’t really some sort of redemption.  I think a lot of people thought it came from China.


I think tinfoil crowd was focusing on Covid being fake, on 5g towers causing it, on vaccines killing millions, etc.


gut Senior Member
18,369 posts 115 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 5:12 PM
posted by ptown_trojans_1

Not according to any intelligence agency. The language they use is not even close to fairly certain. 

Look at the probability language they use and the various confidence levels of that language. 

And I suppose there's zero chance - 0.0 - that there was any political or outside influence on the verbiage or certainty expressed?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

gut Senior Member
18,369 posts 115 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 5:16 PM
posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

I don’t think most people were accusing anyone thinking it came from a Chinese lab as being part of the tinfoil hat crowd, so this isn’t really some sort of redemption.

When I mentioned it very early on, a few posters called me an idiot conspiracy theorist.  And all I said was there was a decent chance it leaked from a lab.

Of course, those posters were conditioned by a certain segment of the media that ANY questioning - no matter how rational or grounded in fact - of the official narrative was a "conspiracy nut".

The people who said it could have accidentally escaped a lab were deliberately grouped with the "bio-weapon" nuts.  Anti-science and the like.

Govt has been shown to lie over and over and over.  But, c'mon guys, it's not cool to question authority.  People could die.

QuakerOats Senior Member
11,701 posts 66 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 5:30 PM
posted by gut

When I mentioned it very early on, a few posters called me an idiot conspiracy theorist.  And all I said was there was a decent chance it leaked from a lab.

Of course, those posters were conditioned by a certain segment of the media that ANY questioning - no matter how rational or grounded in fact - of the official narrative was a "conspiracy nut".

The people who said it could have accidentally escaped a lab were deliberately grouped with the "bio-weapon" nuts.  Anti-science and the like.

Govt has been shown to lie over and over and over.  But, c'mon guys, it's not cool to question authority.  People could die.



Trying to remember the last time the  government bureaucracy 'expert class' has been correct, on anything. 

8,788 posts 20 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 5:57 PM
posted by gut

And I suppose there's zero chance - 0.0 - that there was any political or outside influence on the verbiage or certainty expressed?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

Sounding very 2003 liberal you are...

8,788 posts 20 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 6:55 PM
posted by gut

When I mentioned it very early on, a few posters called me an idiot conspiracy theorist.  And all I said was there was a decent chance it leaked from a lab.

Of course, those posters were conditioned by a certain segment of the media that ANY questioning - no matter how rational or grounded in fact - of the official narrative was a "conspiracy nut".

The people who said it could have accidentally escaped a lab were deliberately grouped with the "bio-weapon" nuts.  Anti-science and the like.

Govt has been shown to lie over and over and over.  But, c'mon guys, it's not cool to question authority.  People could die.

My view on a lab leak has changed as the facts have. Early on, when posters would suggest it, it was without evidence.

I agree we should really dig in, investigate, and declassify as much as we can. 

I also think there is big difference between an accidental lab leak, and the claim that China weaponized it and purposely released it. Zero evidence of that.

I think it is still a toss up it came from a lab naturally or by accident or came from a market. 

I will say, the people that are not open to it being a lab leak of some kind are the ignoring the growing evidence. 

jmog Senior Member
7,737 posts 50 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 8:16 PM
posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

I think Biden and the government should share everything they know about the origins of Covid.


I don’t think most people were accusing anyone thinking it came from a Chinese lab as being part of the tinfoil hat crowd, so this isn’t really some sort of redemption.  I think a lot of people thought it came from China.


I think tinfoil crowd was focusing on Covid being fake, on 5g towers causing it, on vaccines killing millions, etc.


Tell us you weren’t paying attention a few years ago without telling us


jmog Senior Member
7,737 posts 50 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 8:19 PM
posted by ptown_trojans_1

My view on a lab leak has changed as the facts have. Early on, when posters would suggest it, it was without evidence.

I agree we should really dig in, investigate, and declassify as much as we can. 

I also think there is big difference between an accidental lab leak, and the claim that China weaponized it and purposely released it. Zero evidence of that.

I think it is still a toss up it came from a lab naturally or by accident or came from a market. 

I will say, the people that are not open to it being a lab leak of some kind are the ignoring the growing evidence. 

1. The facts haven’t changed.  The information you have been given by the government/MSM has changed. That’s a real difference.


2. 50/50 that it still came from a wet market bat? Come on…no way you are serious. The only real question is was it accidentally leaked from a lab or on purpose. 


8,788 posts 20 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 8:36 PM
posted by jmog

1. The facts haven’t changed.  The information you have been given by the government/MSM has changed. That’s a real difference.


2. 50/50 that it still came from a wet market bat? Come on…no way you are serious. The only real question is was it accidentally leaked from a lab or on purpose. 


1. You did not have facts early on. Everything was conjecture.

2. There is no hard evidence declassified yet to suggest with high certainty either course. 

For something this serious and important, the evidence and credibility and verification of that evidence is everything. The fact we do not have high confidence in where it came from is simply a fancy way of saying it is an educated guess. 

You are a data guy, you should understand intelligence agencies probability assessments and confidence levels. 

iclfan2 Reppin' the 330/216/843
9,465 posts 98 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 9:05 PM

Not a lab leak, hunters laptop not real, masks work, Trump worked with Russia…. Just didn’t have the facts. 

Gardens35 Senior Member
5,888 posts 39 reps Joined Nov 2009
Tue, Feb 28, 2023 9:14 PM

Anyone on here familiar enough with lab processes to explain and/or offer up some scenarios on how something like this can be accidentally leaked?

Thanks.

jmog Senior Member
7,737 posts 50 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Mar 1, 2023 6:42 AM
posted by ptown_trojans_1

1. You did not have facts early on. Everything was conjecture.

2. There is no hard evidence declassified yet to suggest with high certainty either course. 

For something this serious and important, the evidence and credibility and verification of that evidence is everything. The fact we do not have high confidence in where it came from is simply a fancy way of saying it is an educated guess. 

You are a data guy, you should understand intelligence agencies probability assessments and confidence levels. 

1. Occam’s razor. A coronavirus started in Wuhan China where there is a major coronavirus research lab located. Occam’s razor leaves all rational people to say “this new respiratory virus that has way weirder symptoms than regular respiratory viruses…it had to come from that lab right down the road…NOT FROM A FOOD MARKET”. 


Come on Ptown, drop the act.


2. Knowing it came from a lab is not the same as proving it beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal court.  The evidence suggests it, even a preponderance of evidence (>50/50) but not “beyond a reasonable doubt” required for criminal jail time. Yet it would pass muster in a civil case.


3. Your dense belief that we need to wait for declassified verification is intriguing yet you don’t follow that same reasoning/requirement when it’s a subject you already agree with on your side of the aisle.

jmog Senior Member
7,737 posts 50 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Mar 1, 2023 6:44 AM
posted by Gardens35

Anyone on here familiar enough with lab processes to explain and/or offer up some scenarios on how something like this can be accidentally leaked?

Thanks.

I have been in and out of a lot of clean rooms in the past but not to this level that a virology lab would be. So I can’t say for sure and wouldn’t want to speculate or give false information.  I have my guesses but no more than that.


Dr Winston O'Boogie Senior Member
3,345 posts 35 reps Joined Oct 2010
Wed, Mar 1, 2023 7:26 AM
posted by jmog

Tell us you weren’t paying attention a few years ago without telling us


?


gut Senior Member
18,369 posts 115 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Mar 1, 2023 10:18 AM
posted by ptown_trojans_1

My view on a lab leak has changed as the facts have. Early on, when posters would suggest it, it was without evidence.

I also think there is big difference between an accidental lab leak, and the claim that China weaponized it and purposely released it. Zero evidence of that.. 

It wasn't without evidence.  Lab leaks had been known to happen to multiple labs in China in the past, and that very lab had been cited for not having proper safety procedures in place. It was only "lacking evidence" by certain groups pushing a narrative for political purposes.

That explanation was always as valid, and having as much merit, as the wet market origin.  But you questioned one explanation, without any questioning of the alternative.  Even now you seem to struggle to separate fact from gaslighting.

Even now, you can't talk about it without grouping it in with the weaponization nuts.  The arguments were never one in the same, but certain media groups (and politicians) treated it as such and the reason had very little to do with "safety" or "truth".

gut Senior Member
18,369 posts 115 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Mar 1, 2023 10:21 AM
posted by Gardens35

Anyone on here familiar enough with lab processes to explain and/or offer up some scenarios on how something like this can be accidentally leaked?

Thanks.

You can try using google.  Lab leaks are nothing new in China.

QuakerOats Senior Member
11,701 posts 66 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Mar 1, 2023 10:34 AM
posted by ptown_trojans_1

My view on a lab leak has changed as the facts have. Early on, when posters would suggest it, it was without evidence.

I agree we should really dig in, investigate, and declassify as much as we can. 

I also think there is big difference between an accidental lab leak, and the claim that China weaponized it and purposely released it. Zero evidence of that.

I think it is still a toss up it came from a lab naturally or by accident or came from a market. 

I will say, the people that are not open to it being a lab leak of some kind are the ignoring the growing evidence. 


None of the facts have changed; nor will they.

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