What's outraging you today?

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Stating Robert E. Lee was a great general.

No. No he wasn't. He was a good field general, sure, but a terrible overall theater general. 

Maybe it is because I work in VA and his shit is everywhere, but it is pretty annoying. 

Compared to U. Grant he was a genius. Realistically the Union just has more troops, more guns, more $$. The war was an inevitable conclusion no matter who was the Confederate General. 

But Lee was a good General, one would be denying history to say he wasn’t. 

Make no mistake, he was fighting on the wrong side morally, I am just talking about battle tactics. 

posted by ernest_t_bass

No, and if what I typed interprets that way, then I apologize.  There are, however, many Christians who are ridiculed and "shamed" because of their Christian faith.  In my opinion, it doesn't compare to the ridicule that Islam receives, but that doesn't make it right.  

More Christians killed by Muslims in terrorist attacks over the last whatever years than Muslims killed by Christians. You wouldn’t know this if you watched any thing other than maybe Fox however. 

posted by geeblock

Like who? This is a serious question. The only ones i see catch heat is when they try to project their beliefs on others ie gay bashing/abortion

Sri Lanka, the dozens of churches in France that have been torched (ND was an accident, rest were intentional by local Muslims), etc.

The problem with your other statement is this. If it were only the Christians who hold the signs “God hates fags” and are intentionally gross/idiotic outside abortion clinics then I would agree with you.

However, with the modern left/media if a Christian says that homosexuality is a sin, according to the Bible, they they are labeled homophobic and a bigot.  That is ridiculous and you should agree that it is really.

posted by geeblock

I just made the 95% number up as a guess. I think everyone should believe what you want and allow others to do the same. If you don’t believe in abortion don’t get one. If you are against gay marriage marry a person of the opposite sex. It’s pretty easy. You have a right to refuse service if you don’t want to make the gay cake, but if I hear about it I won’t buy a cake there. It’s pretty easy. And I agree it’s not a smart business move at all imo 

Your first statement about abortion to Christians, who believe the fetus is a life, is like saying “if you don’t like murder, then don’t murder anyone.  Let others murder if they like.”

pro-life Christians view it as a baby, as a life and so that is why they are passionate about not allowing it to be killed. 

Your statement about homosexuality is actually how the majority of Christians view it. It’s a sin but they stay out of the politics of it. The problem for most with your next statement about the cake is that your view of how it should have happened isn’t what happened. You said the baker should be allowed to refuse and you can refuse to give him/her business. That is how nearly all Christians thought it should have gone down. The baker can choose as long as he knows he may lose to business. 

That isn’t what happened and that’s what Christians called “persecution” when he got sued, shut down for awhile by the government, etc. (can’t remember the whole story). 

posted by geeblock

Hmmm... I not sure I’m getting there with that analogy. Putting your beliefs on someone and making a law saying YOU can’t get an abortion because I believe it’s wrong just doesn’t get me there.

I believe murder, theft, rape, etc are wrong, should we not have laws on these things because they are all my beliefs (and actually stem from the Judeo-Christian Bible)?

Your logic is flawed. You have to understand that to a pro-lifer it is killing a living baby. Just like they believe murder is wrong, they believe abortion is as well. 

You take almost anything that is illegal and morally wrong and put it in your analogy and it may make you realize why they are fervent in their pro life beliefs. 

posted by jmog

 

Sri Lanka, the dozens of churches in France that have been torched (ND was an accident, rest were intentional by local Muslims), etc.

 

The problem with your other statement is this. If it were only the Christians who hold the signs “God hates fags” and are intentionally gross/idiotic outside abortion clinics then I would agree with you.

 

However, with the modern left/media if a Christian says that homosexuality is a sin, according to the Bible, they they are labeled homophobic and a bigot.  That is ridiculous and you should agree that it is really.

 

Also  the black churches in the south getting burned down. By “other Christians”. As far as what the Bible says  I agree my mother is a Jehovah’s Witness and we were raised to believe it’s a sin. I don’t think anyone says if you believe in the Bible and you believe being gay is a sin makes you homophobic. What makes you homophobic is if you take those beliefs and apply them to other people. Is the sin of being gay worse than adultery? When you judge others sins as greater than yours or pick and choose which sins to speak out against I think is when you get into trouble.  

posted by geeblock

Don’t be deft 

It is an EXACT correlation! Just because you don’t like the analogy doesn’t make it 100% spot on. 

posted by geeblock

Also  the black churches in the south getting burned down. By “other Christians”. As far as what the Bible says  I agree my mother is a Jehovah’s Witness and we were raised to believe it’s a sin. I don’t think anyone says if you believe in the Bible and you believe being gay is a sin makes you homophobic. What makes you homophobic is if you take those beliefs and apply them to other people. Is the sin of being gay worse than adultery? When you judge others sins as greater than yours or pick and choose which sins to speak out against I think is when you get into trouble.  

Also what other groups do the god hate fags thing and protest funerals of dead soldiers ect.. isn’t that only Christians?

Is the sin of being gay worse than having  pre marital sex, birth control, I could go on. That is really the question as who is to judge someone else. If there is a god we will all have to answer individually

posted by jmog

More Christians killed by Muslims in terrorist attacks over the last whatever years than Muslims killed by Christians. You wouldn’t know this if you watched any thing other than maybe Fox however. 

How many Muslims have been killed by American Christians since 9/11? Many were militants, but most were innocent civilians (which unfortunately is the price of war).

posted by jmog

I believe murder, theft, rape, etc are wrong, should we not have laws on these things because they are all my beliefs (and actually stem from the Judeo-Christian Bible)?

 

Your logic is flawed. You have to understand that to a pro-lifer it is killing a living baby. Just like they believe murder is wrong, they believe abortion is as well. 

Of course abortion is wrong, it is killing a baby

 

You take almost anything that is illegal and morally wrong and put it in your analogy and it may make you realize why they are fervent in their pro life beliefs. 

 

 

posted by geeblock

Hmmm... I not sure I’m getting there with that analogy. Putting your beliefs on someone and making a law saying YOU can’t get an abortion because I believe it’s wrong just doesn’t get me there.

The analogy was this:
If you don't like or morally agree with X, then don't partake in X.

Try applying that to a financial hobby horse.  The tune usually changes.

posted by thavoice

 

Of course abortion is wrong, it is killing a baby

 

You take almost anything that is illegal and morally wrong and put it in your analogy and it may make you realize why they are fervent in their pro life beliefs. 

 

 

 

So if you are anti abortion you automatically have to be pro universal health care right?

posted by geeblock

 When you judge others sins as greater than yours or pick and choose which sins to speak out against I think is when you get into trouble.  

Towards the top of my list of why I hate how most christians act.

posted by ernest_t_bass

Towards the top of my list of why I hate how most christians act.

Yep. To go with CHS' post, while I tend to dump on all non-Elder Gods religions, Christianity gets it more than Islam from me simply due to actually knowing a lot of people who profess faith in the former, as opposed to the latter. And when you know someone, like say a co-worker who claims to be faithful, listens to Christian music and goes to church, but also is a super-negative person who always is complaining about someone else, gossips about people like that is her job and never feels she is to blame whenever something goes wrong, well, there's a lot of shit to mock about her and her beliefs.

I tend to have a lot less of a problem with the religion itself than the people following it, since personal experience has tended to paint a disproportionate percentage of them as hypocrites who hide behind scripture to justify one belief or another, while the concepts of "bettering oneself" and "not being a complete fuck" go sailing way over their heads.

Anybody with any kind of faith can "line item veto" anything from their tenets that they want to. Then, at that point it is between them and whatever higher being/God/head of lettuce/meteor that they have. The point is is that you can't have everything your own way no matter if you believe in something or believe in nothing. I think, for the most part, Judeo-Christian values and a secular law work together pretty well. It will never satisfy everybody, especially to the extent that they want to be satisfied but it's what we have. It's probably a good thing that it works this way, when you think about it. I wouldn't want to live in a country where religion IS the law. 

posted by geeblock

Also  the black churches in the south getting burned down. By “other Christians”. As far as what the Bible says  I agree my mother is a Jehovah’s Witness and we were raised to believe it’s a sin. I don’t think anyone says if you believe in the Bible and you believe being gay is a sin makes you homophobic. What makes you homophobic is if you take those beliefs and apply them to other people. Is the sin of being gay worse than adultery? When you judge others sins as greater than yours or pick and choose which sins to speak out against I think is when you get into trouble.  

If you don’t believe the “left” has labeled even those that believe homosexuality is a sin as homophobic then you haven’t paid attention. 

And you you are right, all sin is sin. Homosexuality is no better or worse than adultery, lying, etc. 

posted by geeblock

So if you are anti abortion you automatically have to be pro universal health care right?

Please explain this logic. I am curious. 

People who are proud of getting something for being a complainer.

GFY

posted by jmog

Compared to U. Grant he was a genius. Realistically the Union just has more troops, more guns, more $$. The war was an inevitable conclusion no matter who was the Confederate General. 

 

But Lee was a good General, one would be denying history to say he wasn’t. 

Make no mistake, he was fighting on the wrong side morally, I am just talking about battle tactics. 

No. Don't short change Grant. Grant understood more than Lee the totality of the war and how to squeeze the south from multiple areas. Lee also made too many mistakes, especially during 1863-1864 to be considered a genius. Grant made one mistake during the last two years, Cold Harbor.  Grant's record out in the western theater was also really, really impressive. It is why Lincoln wanted him to command the entire Union army. 

I read Ron Chernow's Grant last year as well as Grant's Memoirs. I highly recommend them for people to fully understand how great Grant was. 

There was one passage from Chernow's book I appreciate, "The relentless focus on Grant's last battles against Robert E. Lee in Virginia has obscured his stellar record of winning battles in the western war long before taking charge of Union forces in early 1864. After that, he did not simply direct the Army of the Potomac, but masterminded the coordinated movements of all federal forces. A far-seeing general, he adopted a comprehensive policy for all theaters of war, treating them as an interrelated whole. However brilliant Lee was as a tactician, Grant surpassed him as a grand strategy crafting the plan that defeated the Confederacy. The military historian John Keegan paid homage to Grant as "the towering military genius of the Civil War" and noted the modernity of his methods as he mobilized railroads and telegraphs to set his armies in motion. Grant, he concluded, "was the greatest general of the war, one who would have excelled at any time in any army."