Progressives, part 3...

Also how disgusting is it that the democrat party is still shamelessly using black Americans.  All of them know damn well reparations are not feasible.  Yet giving impoverished black Americans false hope and using them as props in their political shit show is just collateral damage in securing their political power.  Its a fucking farce and they all know it.  The sad thing is the people that have been duped into participating in this political theatre.

posted by jmog

I have one problem with your whole argument, you said "our sins". I owned zero slaves. My parents owned zero slaves. My grandparents owned zero slaves. My great-grandparents owned zero slaves. My great-great grandparents were in Scotland during the Civil War.

 

There is not a single person alive right now that owned slaves, so it is not "our" sin, it was THEIR sin. The people who did it, no one else's.

 

Now, if you want to talk "reparations" for Jim Crow laws and mistreatments up until the 1960s (ish) then we can have a dialogue and who should pay what to whom.

Exactly.  The victims (slaves) are dead; the slave owners are dead; the people who sold the slaves into slavery are dead.  Five generations have since passed since they all died.  It is asinine we are even having this discussion.  As for some type of assistance to cover 20th century discrimination practices, we have just finished spending about $3 trillion in assistance over the last 50 years; if that was not enough, I am sorry.  Time to move on – period.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

That is why it is still our sin. I'm not fully on board with that as again, how do you quantify that? 

Are we also going to pretend that it gets forgiven after someone is given a few grand? 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Well, slavery is America's original sin. Yes, while previous generations dealt with part of it, the reparation arguments also focus on your last sentence, as the sin has not been forgiven or dealt with fully. That is why it is still our sin. I'm not fully on board with that as again, how do you quantify that? 

 

So if I give them money, the sin goes away?  That is blackmail, not forgiveness.

Good God.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Well, slavery is America's original sin. Yes, while previous generations dealt with part of it, the reparation arguments also focus on your last sentence, as the sin has not been forgiven or dealt with fully. That is why it is still our sin. I'm not fully on board with that as again, how do you quantify that? 

 

You don't. You continue the great progress that has been made and get past the notion that sins against the innocent can be repaid via sins against innocents in some sort of "equal but opposite direction".

posted by queencitybuckeye

You don't. You continue the great progress that has been made and get past the notion that sins against the innocent can be repaid via sins against innocents in some sort of "equal but opposite direction".

I'm with you, which is why I do not support the reparations argument. It is too backward looking and misses the point. I understand the argument, but instead we should, as a county, work toward eliminating any perceived or real institutional racism that exists in the country.  It is a long goal, but hell, one where we owe previous generations to keep going to address what was our original sin. 

I think Justin brought up one item that would surely help. 

If Trump were smart, which, well...he'd push hard for removing marijuana from schedule I. It would be a slam-dunk positive for him, take the wind out of the sails of the democrats leading up to the election. There would be zero negative consequences for him. None.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

I'm with you, which is why I do not support the reparations argument. It is too backward looking and misses the point. I understand the argument, but instead we should, as a county, work toward eliminating any perceived or real institutional racism that exists in the country.  It is a long goal, but hell, one where we owe previous generations to keep going to address what was our original sin. 

I think Justin brought up one item that would surely help. 

I agree with Justin's take as well, probably for somewhat different reasons.

Not that you meant it this way, but it needs to be pointed out that "our original sin" was not created by us, nor were we the worst offenders in the history of the world.. What we are is the country where racism isn't dead, but where the most progress has been made in that direction, and it ain't even close.

posted by iclfan2

Are we also going to pretend that it gets forgiven after someone is given a few grand? 

a few grand....I was thinking $500.  

posted by queencitybuckeye

I agree with Justin's take as well, probably for somewhat different reasons.

Not that you meant it this way, but it needs to be pointed out that "our original sin" was not created by us, nor were we the worst offenders in the history of the world.. What we are is the country where racism isn't dead, but where the most progress has been made in that direction, and it ain't even close.

Sure. I was referring to our as America's history. The collective country as a whole. It is part of our past. It is our sin, just like our victories in the Revolution, WWI, WWII, saving the free world etc are our bright spots. 

posted by justincredible

If Trump were smart, which, well...he'd push hard for removing marijuana from schedule I. It would be a slam-dunk positive for him, take the wind out of the sails of the democrats leading up to the election. There would be zero negative consequences for him. None.

There have been rumors he was/is considering this.  Might be a card he will use once the general eleciton heats up.

All this talk is making me want to watch Chappelle’s skit on it. 

posted by CenterBHSFan

Define slavery, you heretic!

He's queencitybuckeye; I'm Heretic.

Hope this helps.

posted by like_that

There have been rumors he was/is considering this.  Might be a card he will use once the general eleciton heats up.

He'd be an absolute fool if he didn't. So, I'm skeptical.

I doubt Trump will do it. He's got Bolton whispering in his ear about Iran so... even if he did, he'd muck it up with the Iran business. 

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Well, slavery is America's original sin. Yes, while previous generations dealt with part of it, the reparation arguments also focus on your last sentence, as the sin has not been forgiven or dealt with fully. That is why it is still our sin. I'm not fully on board with that as again, how do you quantify that? 

 

No it wasn’t. To believe the US is/was the biggest sinner in the slave world or even the originator of it is hilariously wrong historically. 

Slavery was started millennia ago and is still going on in the world right now. Why is the US the only country talking about paying back the ancestors of slavery?

Are the Egyptians going to pay back the Jews?

Are we going to pay back the Irish?

Are we going to pay back the Asian-Americans?

Are Europeans going to pay back Africans?

Will Turkey pay back Christians from when the Ottoman Empire took Christian slaves?

A report estimated that at 1800 roughly 1/3 of the world’s population was enslaved (small portion of that was in the US and black people).

Why is reparations only talked about in the US and none of the other countries that had slavery over the last 1000 years?

This is why I won’t vote Democrat. This also isn’t 5 generations ago. My dad was a few years old on the day of this speech. Yes slavery ended 150 years ago but for most blacks life got worse. Followed by 150 years of him crow, predatory lending, and denied access to fair housing and education. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/ositanwanevu/status/1141181413011726336

posted by geeblock

This is why I won’t vote Democrat. This also isn’t 5 generations ago. My dad was a few years old on the day of this speech. Yes slavery ended 150 years ago but for most blacks life got worse. Followed by 150 years of him crow, predatory lending, and denied access to fair housing and education. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/ositanwanevu/status/1141181413011726336

you dont get it both ways.....you cant end slavery and then say that "most" life's got worse.

posted by like_that

There have been rumors he was/is considering this.  Might be a card he will use once the general eleciton heats up.

That's a good point - if he did it now, all the goodwill and pop will have dissipated come election time (which is a really sad commentary on the state of our politics).

posted by geeblock

This is why I won’t vote Democrat. This also isn’t 5 generations ago. My dad was a few years old on the day of this speech. Yes slavery ended 150 years ago but for most blacks life got worse. Followed by 150 years of him crow, predatory lending, and denied access to fair housing and education. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/ositanwanevu/status/1141181413011726336

What do you think you should get?

On a side not, all of the Biden stuff coming out now makes the media look even more complicit in picking sides. They all knew Biden said shit that people now (regressives) would think is questionable. Just saw tweets mad that he said BOY about Jesse Jackson back in the day. Glad to know the media has woken up from it's hibernation from 2008-2016. Clowns