Progressives, part 3...

posted by like_that

I wonder how long they have been holding this info. 

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Well, they're there because there are a lot of high paying jobs, they like the weather, they like all of the nature/beauty, the like to do outdoor stuff (mountains, ocean), they like the international vibe of some of the big cities (LA and SF), they want to take advantage of top notch public schools, etc.  It's not for everyone obviously, but there is a reason that almost 15% of the US population lives there.  

California could be a great state, but the first  bolded part is not why most people are there.  High salary, but they are being pummeled in the ass by taxes.  Bryce Harper turned down SF, because of the taxes.  In SF if your family brings in $117K, you can qualify for low income status.  Also, to the second bolded part, this might be true now, but California also has the highest outbound rate of any state in the country.  I believe they are #2 or #3.  People are getting out, because the policies there are making it unaffordable. California could easily be the best state in this country, but unfortunately the lawmakers there are driving people out. 

 

I don't see it that way.  If people wanted to buy a bigger house, they'd leave - and many have as you say.  But the people that are there and aren't leaving are satisfied with jobs,.pay, weather, scenery, whatever the case.  The question was why would anyone live there, and I think these are the answers.  I wouldn't live there.  Maybe you wouldn't either.  But the people there chose to be there and they elect the politicians that put he laws in  place that affect taxes.  Speaking with their pocketbooks, these people approve of the way the place is governed.  

posted by like_that

California could be a great state, but the first  bolded part is not why most people are there.  High salary, but they are being pummeled in the ass by taxes.  Bryce Harper turned down SF, because of the taxes.  In SF if your family brings in $117K, you can qualify for low income status.  Also, to the second bolded part, this might be true now, but California also has the highest outbound rate of any state in the country.  I believe they are #2 or #3.  People are getting out, because the policies there are making it unaffordable. California could easily be the best state in this country, but unfortunately the lawmakers there are driving people out. 

 

It was once a great state, but over the last 40 years has gone to hell, with the acceleration of that trend occurring in the last 10. 

posted by QuakerOats

It was once a great state, but over the last 40 years has gone to hell, with the acceleration of that trend occurring in the last 10. 

 

To you and others it has.  But to many people it has not.  It's a matter of perspective.  

posted by O-Trap

I'm assuming you mean the surrounding area.  The city itself smells like it rains piss.

 

I spent a week in SF last month.  I hadn't been there in a long time and I expected it to be really bad.  However I did not notice anymore homeless people than I do when traveling to any other big city.  I actually thought the place looked pretty clean.  The only smell I detected was the ocean air.  I came away thinking that SF is still the same beautiful city I remembered.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

To you and others it has.  But to many people it has not.  It's a matter of perspective.  

Well if you enjoy a 13% state income tax rate, plus high local taxes, plus regulations out the ass, plus a massive liberal administrative state in Sacramento micromanaging everything you do (especially businesses), plus extremely high costs, plus filthy drug-infested sanctuary cities and a boatload of gang bangers, then yes, I can see how some people enjoy it there.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

I spent a week in SF last month.  I hadn't been there in a long time and I expected it to be really bad.  However I did not notice anymore homeless people than I do when traveling to any other big city.  I actually thought the place looked pretty clean.  The only smell I detected was the ocean air.  I came away thinking that SF is still the same beautiful city I remembered.

Were you downtown or in the surrounding areas?  The surrounding areas are quite nice, don't smell, and are actually charming.

I was expecting that this last time I went, as it didn't occur to me that I'd never been downtown.  When I did arrive there this last time, it was pretty gross.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

I don't see it that way.  If people wanted to buy a bigger house, they'd leave - and many have as you say.  But the people that are there and aren't leaving are satisfied with jobs,.pay, weather, scenery, whatever the case.  The question was why would anyone live there, and I think these are the answers.  I wouldn't live there.  Maybe you wouldn't either.  But the people there chose to be there and they elect the politicians that put he laws in  place that affect taxes.  Speaking with their pocketbooks, these people approve of the way the place is governed.  

I agreed with you on weather, scenery, food, etc.  I would live there for those reasons, even though the majority of the people there suck. Your take on salaries just doesn't make sense.  Most people are leaving (again top 3 outbound rate), because their salaries aren't worth it after taxes.  A lot of people are turning down the idea of working in California, because of this reason as well. They might be voting for this politicians by "speaking with their pocketbooks," but the data suggests they are all crying uncle and leaving. Sprinkle in there is a movement to try and divide California to escape those policies.  All of that doesn't scream "the people approve of the way the place is governed" to me.  

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

To you and others it has.  But to many people it has not.  It's a matter of perspective.  

You're trying too hard.  How many people have to leave the state for you think the opposite?   By your logic there has to be 0 people left in the state.  It's ok to admit that California has legitimate problems.  Try ignoring the fact QO is making the statement. 

Saw this graph on Tim Pool's channel (sorry for the size). It shows just how far democrats and republicans have moved away from the middle. It also shows that the republicans have reined themselves in slightly while the democrats have gone as far to the left as the graph will allow the bar to move.

Oh here is the link for the above graph:

https://qz.com/1580091/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-how-far-left-the-democrats-are-going/

posted by CenterBHSFan

Saw this graph on Tim Pool's channel (sorry for the size). It shows just how far democrats and republicans have moved away from the middle. It also shows that the republicans have reined themselves in slightly while the democrats have gone as far to the left as the graph will allow the bar to move.

This goes along with the pew research I posted a few times.  This is why when people try to downplay the crazy left as a small minority, I say they are in denial. 

posted by like_that

This goes along with the pew research I posted a few times.  This is why when people try to downplay the crazy left as a small minority, I say they are in denial. 

Well I guess I'm of the opinion that whether you fall under the umbrellas of democrat or republican - you will never see improvements in your chosen party if you always support the good parts of ideology and seldom criticize the bad parts of the ideology. The trendy word that people currently use to describe this is tribalism, but I've always called it zealotry. It's just not good.

posted by CenterBHSFan

Well I guess I'm of the opinion that whether you fall under the umbrellas of democrat or republican - you will never see improvements in your chosen party if you always support the good parts of ideology and seldom criticize the bad parts of the ideology. The trendy word that people currently use to describe this is tribalism, but I've always called it zealotry. It's just not good.

I agree, and don't get me wrong.  I can easily see a radical shift right.  Newton's third law.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. 

posted by CenterBHSFan

Saw this graph on Tim Pool's channel (sorry for the size). It shows just how far democrats and republicans have moved away from the middle. It also shows that the republicans have reined themselves in slightly while the democrats have gone as far to the left as the graph will allow the bar to move.

Looks scientific

Anyone can pull something off the internet showing what they want it to show. I just googled the right shifting further right and found 5+ articles. 

I think you guys/gals just WANT the narrative to be out there that the left is shifting further left. 

posted by SportsAndLady

Looks scientific

Anyone can pull something off the internet showing what they want it to show. I just googled the right shifting further right and found 5+ articles. 

I think you guys/gals just WANT the narrative to be out there that the left is shifting further left. 

More than happy to take in research/data if you have it. Link?

Edit: Not just a google search with articles stating it.  I want to see legitimate research/data.  Pew research has been doing this shit for decades for instance. 

posted by SportsAndLady

Looks scientific

Anyone can pull something off the internet showing what they want it to show. I just googled the right shifting further right and found 5+ articles. 

I think you guys/gals just WANT the narrative to be out there that the left is shifting further left. 

Consider the fact that John F. Kennedy’s policies would make him a conservative republican by today’s standards, but in his day he was a liberal democrat.  There is no denying the fact that the entire spectrum has shifted far to the left.  50 years of context proves it.

Now we have the democrats in the NY legislature blocking a bill to expand college tuition for Gold Star families, after approving $27 million for illegal immigrants, 10 times what the Gold Star families receive.  Honest to Christ you’d think the enemies of state were sitting in these chambers.

posted by O-Trap

Were you downtown or in the surrounding areas?  The surrounding areas are quite nice, don't smell, and are actually charming.

I was expecting that this last time I went, as it didn't occur to me that I'd never been downtown.  When I did arrive there this last time, it was pretty gross.

I was downtown.  I stayed right next to Union Square.  On a day off, I walked from there to the Presidio.  That route crosses a wide range of neighborhoods.  Some were nice some were not.  But it really didn't seem to be any different than most any other big city.  I saw homeless people, but they didn't seem any more prevalent than Chicago or NYC or Atlanta or plenty of other cities.  I thought things looked pretty nice.  

posted by SportsAndLady

Looks scientific

Anyone can pull something off the internet showing what they want it to show. I just googled the right shifting further right and found 5+ articles. 

I think you guys/gals just WANT the narrative to be out there that the left is shifting further left. 

Did you miss the part where I said that both parties were shifting away from the middle? To most that would clearly show that it's not just one side.
On the other hand, I kinda like the idea that you're paying so much attention to what I say and trying to troll. That makes two people who like to argue with me about everything! I wonder how many more I can gather up?
Maybe I'll say something that Otrap and I can get into it about. Wouldn't that be... Bananas?

posted by like_that

 Most people are leaving (again top 3 outbound rate), because their salaries aren't worth it after taxes.  

A lot of people are leaving.  "Most" is not correct.  There are 38 million people there.  If "most" were leaving, they would be a lot less.  

There are a lot of people leaving that place, I agree.  But there are millions who chose to stay.  For them, the reasons for staying outweigh those for going.  The original point here was someone asked "why would anyone live there?".   A lot of people  have a lot of reasons for doing so.