Progressives, part 3...

posted by Spock

that is complete bullshit.  You think that Trump (a world class business man) cares about race, sex, gender etc...... when he came up with a campaign slogan?  I think he was aiming toward MAGA meaning things about the economy, how we stand internationally, the power of the military.  To think it was meant to empower white males to take over the country is stupid

“I think” part of your response is my point. That is your perspective and that’s great for you. And he’s actually not that sweet of a businessman that’s your perspective as well 

posted by FatHobbit

Obama's hope and change meant a better world for people who had been marginalized. It's not too much of a stretch to see MAGA as turning back things to when they were better for straight white males and the blacks and the gays knew their place  and did what they were supposed to. (Keep quiet and accept things the way things are) 

🙌🏻

posted by Spock

that is complete bullshit.  You think that Trump (a world class business man) cares about race, sex, gender etc...... when he came up with a campaign slogan?  I think he was aiming toward MAGA meaning things about the economy, how we stand internationally, the power of the military.  To think it was meant to empower white males to take over the country is stupid

Do you think Obama was concerned about race when he came up with hope and change? 

posted by Spock

(a world class business man)

It's weird to see someone still buying this.

posted by FatHobbit

Do you think Obama was concerned about race when he came up with hope and change? 

The difference between the 2 is that Obama wanted to fundamentally change the country into something it never was.  Through redistribution of wealth and pitting classes of people against each other.  Trump just wanted to return some symbolence of how the US stands in the world.

posted by Spock

The difference between the 2 is that Obama wanted to fundamentally change the country into something it never was.  Through redistribution of wealth and pitting classes of people against each other.  Trump just wanted to return some symbolence of how the US stands in the world.

So Obama was trying to help people who had been marginalized and Trump is trying to change it back. 

posted by Spock

The difference between the 2 is that Obama wanted to fundamentally change the country into something it never was.  Through redistribution of wealth and pitting classes of people against each other.  Trump just wanted to return some symbolence of how the US stands in the world.

You could (I don't, but a person could) argue that the part of what Obama wanted to change ... the part that American never was ... was a place closer to an absence of inequality among minorities.

Look, for all the great things through the history of the US, and as much progress as might have been made, minorities have still gotten a raw deal.  And while I disagree with the mode Obama chose, I can't object to the motives of those who voted for him and who wanted the things he put forward.

It's no wonder someone who peels those back using nothing but partisan rhetoric and some of the most overt propaganda I've seen in my lifetime is vilified like he is.  It should shock literally nobody who has ever heard the man speak or read a day's worth of tweets.

It really shouldn't come as any surprise that the sum total of his platform, when mixed with the slogan "MAGA" (when you're dealing with a country that has become less institutionally racist over time), is seen the way it is.  It practically begets one of two conclusions: He's racist (not in a KKK sense, but in a "colored people should know their place" sense) or he's dense and inept.

Personally, I believe it's the latter.  I don't think he's actually as racist as some things are making him appear.  I recall hearing that he's gone on the record as saying he didn't want David Duke's approval, and I believe I recall him having fired staffers in the past for racist social media comments.

That leaves a disconnect in aptitude and perceptiveness, which is where I think reality lies.

posted by FatHobbit

So Obama was trying to help people who had been marginalized and Trump is trying to change it back. 

Except for the record number of people of color he killed from overhead.

posted by FatHobbit

So Obama was trying to help people who had been marginalized and Trump is trying to change it back. 

Not many blacks or latinos voted for Trump, but he doesn't win election without those who did.  And Obama still opposed gay marriage in 2008.  Anyone who believes campaign slogans aren't intended to be positive, entirely inclusive messages are lacking common sense. 

"Hope and Change" was after the Great Recession and endless war in the Middle East.  It wasn't remotely just about marginalized people but getting the country back on track.  And that's exactly what "MAGA" went after, that Obama hadn't gotten the country back on track and Hillary was promising 8 more years.  THAT is what MAGA was all about, not some racist dog whistle.

And anyone triggered by a campaign slogan is an absolute idiot.

posted by geeblock

I never said dems were better didn’t say they didn’t have problematic supporters. I have said many times at this point I won’t be voting. The dem candidates are a joke. I don’t think it is the “reason” he won. But the strategy that he’s using to go against the establishment and “make America great again” the whole slogan is offensive to me and  really doesn’t make the black vote necessary for him to win and I don’t think he cares. Those ideologies also fit right in line with those who would never say the n word but will go in every comment section and say “thugs” or “animals” as referring to black people. It’s a definite “rebranding” I talked to my co worker who is a proud boy and he was explaining that well the ok sign is not really a white power sign but we just do it to troll because people think it is. I guess I just don’t get it. I’m not a white supremest but I just pretend to be one on the weekends? We had to agree to disagree. To me pretending to be white supremest is just semant

You asked for a hate group that didn't support Trump. Someone gave one (Antifa) and you move the goalposts by going on this diatribe?

1. MAGA is not racist, that is an asinine statement. I would never and have never wore a MAGA anything but to say it is racist is plain stupid.

2. I call white teenagers who act like idiots thugs as well, so is it racist if I say it about black teenagers who act like idiots?

3. You didn't listen to what your coworker said. The "ok" symbol is not racist, has never been racist, and won't be racist. However, some idiots in the MSM called it racist so now people make fun of the absurdity of calling it racist by showing it all over the place. That isn't them pretending to be racist, that is them making fun of people who call everything and anything racist even when it isn't.

posted by geeblock

What year are you talking about was great? Whatever year you make it wasn’t great for black people. U can have your opinion about it and I can have mine. I find it funny that you have to believe that somehow because I disagree with you that I was fooled by the media and fake news. I’m not saying u are calling me stupid but you are def saying that your interpretation is correct and I’m just a sheep. If that’s what it means to you that’s great. I don’t see it coming off like that and I have never seen a link where it mentioned the 80-90s or ever heard trump reference those years and he has been asked right? It would alter my opinion for sure if he said that 

If you heard any of his speeches during the campaign when he would use the phrase Make America Great Again every single time it was tied to economic growth, repealing "bad trade deals" like NAFTA, bring back manufacturing jobs, etc. 

The media portrayed MAGA as Jim Crow.

So yes, I think his "interpretation" is correct given the actual context the actual candidate that used the slogan used it in. I am sorry that your interpretation goes along with what the MSM told all liberals Trump "really meant". But when he literally was tying it in with manufacturing job growth and trade deficits with China/Mexico I doubt it had to do with repressing black America.

He never even "dog whistled" it like "going back to our values of the 50s/60s" like the MSM tried to say. He tied it in with jobs, period. 

posted by FatHobbit

Obama's hope and change meant a better world for people who had been marginalized. It's not too much of a stretch to see MAGA as turning back things to when they were better for straight white males and the blacks and the gays knew their place  and did what they were supposed to. (Keep quiet and accept things the way things are) 

Only if you listened to what the MSM told you, not if you actually heard ANY of Trump's speeches where he used the MAGA phrase. It was always tied in with the economy.

posted by jmog

Only if you listened to what the MSM told you, not if you actually heard ANY of Trump's speeches where he used the MAGA phrase. It was always tied in with the economy.

This is the new standard of journalism in America.  When you don't have the soundbite of someone saying what you wish they said to push your agenda, then you just make up "what they really meant" attributing it to dog whistles and coded language.

It's quite comical when applied to Trump - a guy who frequently mispeaks, changes his mind, lies and generally doesn't even know what he's saying.  But somehow he's an evil genius that uses coded language only understood by racists and, of course, the liberal media.  I'd add this is why so many other politicians very carefully choose their words, even going so far as to test group language and phrasing.  That's literally how you would do coded language, not the way Trump does with his limited vocabulary shooting from the hip.

When he hijacked the narrative about police brutality and made it about the military and the flag. I’m sure it didn’t bother you because you don’t think police brutality is a thing. When he said “arrest them rough” bang their head on the door of the car. What type of people do u think this happens to? White people? He is a draft dodger who for whatever reason was allowed to become a champion for the military even tho he could have cared less the rest of his life, meanwhile marginalizing the issue of police brutality all at the same time. He created a narrative that these uppity blacks should just be lucky we allow them to play and shut up. Called them spoiled and acted as if they didn’t earn their job/money by working hard but rather they were just lucky. I’m sure your version of this will be well I mean he loves the flag/military etc.  I didn’t see it that way and I feel it did damage to the black comm

posted by jmog

Only if you listened to what the MSM told you, not if you actually heard ANY of Trump's speeches where he used the MAGA phrase. It was always tied in with the economy.

I don't listen to msm at all. Most of my friends and family are Republican. Most of them think Trump is a train wreck. The handful who openly support Trump are the same people who think the blacks need to know their place or that they were getting a free ride under Obama. They are the same people who think senators or representatives should be removed because they are Muslim. The same people who think their religion should be taught in schools. The same people who defend every ridiculous thing Trump says. 

I know that's not a scientific poll but I do see where geeblock is coming from. 

I will agree that you have to be careful what source you get your news from 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/25/introducing-fact-checkers-guide-manipulated-video/

posted by geeblock

I will agree that you have to be careful what source you get your news from 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/25/introducing-fact-checkers-guide-manipulated-video/

 

The new technology must be a wet dream for people who spread fake news. 

posted by geeblock

When he hijacked the narrative about police brutality and made it about the military and the flag. I’m sure it didn’t bother you because you don’t think police brutality is a thing.

LMAO - wasn't the whole "hands up don't shoot" that kicked off the kneeling a false narrative?

Yes, all the things you mention are a problem.  But they represent a tiny, tiny percentage of 10 MILLION arrests and tens of million more interactions with police annually.  Disproportionate outcomes in there criminal justice system are not a marginal issue but let's just ignore that Trump signed reforms.

posted by FatHobbit

I don't listen to msm at all. Most of my friends and family are Republican. Most of them think Trump is a train wreck. The handful who openly support Trump are the same people who think the blacks need to know their place or that they were getting a free ride under Obama. They are the same people who think senators or representatives should be removed because they are Muslim. The same people who think their religion should be taught in schools. The same people who defend every ridiculous thing Trump says. 

I know that's not a scientific poll but I do see where geeblock is coming from. 

The difference is gblock uses these small samples of people he "knows" as his scientfific poll. 

posted by geeblock

When he hijacked the narrative about police brutality and made it about the military and the flag. I’m sure it didn’t bother you because you don’t think police brutality is a thing. When he said “arrest them rough” bang their head on the door of the car. What type of people do u think this happens to? White people? He is a draft dodger who for whatever reason was allowed to become a champion for the military even tho he could have cared less the rest of his life, meanwhile marginalizing the issue of police brutality all at the same time. He created a narrative that these uppity blacks should just be lucky we allow them to play and shut up. Called them spoiled and acted as if they didn’t earn their job/money by working hard but rather they were just lucky. I’m sure your version of this will be well I mean he loves the flag/military etc.  I didn’t see it that way and I feel it did damage to the black comm

1. There are some racist police officers (just like any other profession) but statistics do not support the notion that blacks or other people of color are injured/shot/killed at higher rates of police interactions than white people. (https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-cops-race-injury-20160725-snap-story.html). The "police killing black people" narrative is a myth, in a general interaction with police a white man is just as likely or slightly more likely to be shot than a black man. Statistical studies have proven this, but it doesn't get coverage because it doesn't fit the narrative. The statistic that more blacks are killed per 100,000 people (2.1 vs 0.9 for white) is true, and fits the narrative so it gets played. However, once you adjust the numbers for actual arrests/police interactions (because people of color commit more crimes per capita) the numbers get reversed.

2. He didn't "hijack" anything. Football players voiced their 1A right to kneel and he voiced his 1A right that no one should disrespect the flag/anthem/etc. 

3. "Rough them up"...yes, as stated above a white male is just as likely to get roughed up as a black male. Sorry, but facts don't care about feelings here. One has to include the fact that people of color get arrested at higher rates into the statistical analysis, not just divide by the total population (this is also why the "gender wage gap" myth is so prevalent, but that is a different topic).

4. I agree with you about the draft dodging.

5. I have never once seen Trump say or insenuate that the "uppity blacks are lucky to be with us...". You do know that Trump has had more minorities, women, people of color, blacks, etc in his appointments than Obama did right? I guess he is just using them as props in your opinion?