Moving Forward America

Belly35 Elderly Intellectual
10,015 posts 56 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 10:47 AM

The ongoing eradication of symbolic racial historical artifacts (confederate flag, statues, and monuments) that portrays the history of America as a racist country and slavery, that may stir emotional repression and racism within the Black community be removed because it has a racist connotation. If this is the will of the Black community to the elimination potential racist symbolic of the past than is it racist to present the same symbolic Black Lives Matter to the White, Asian and Hispanic Community? With this be the marching banner of the Black Community, like the Confederate flag to the South. Will the respected Leaders of the Black movement be represented with monuments, with this not stir the same emotional frustration of American racism within the other Ethic communities?  Be careful what you wish for. My feeling is, that this moment in time will set the progress of the eliminations of racism on both sides, this is a perfect and wonderful opportunity for America. However, if America leaders, communities, and citizens start this endeavor of change with symbolic Black Lives Matter / African American connotation / Rioting Frustration we are just repeating the wrong history. All parties must now enter this monumental process, not as Black or White or Political Identities but as non-bias Leadership, supportive communities and faith base joining of people to discover the root of the issue, be honest and truth of the facts, alter policy, education, government and identify the social wrong and provide a solution for the future of Equality America.


Spock Senior Member
5,271 posts 8 reps Joined Jul 2013
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 10:57 AM

Never understood the removal of these.  If it offends you, move to another state that doesnt want to display their history.  Free country right?

Spock Senior Member
5,271 posts 8 reps Joined Jul 2013
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 10:59 AM

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/10/gone-with-the-wind-number-one-best-seller-at-amazon-after-hbo-blacklist/

 

Well Woke got taken to a new level.  Anyone want to start making a list of other movies about to be banned?

Django?  Color Purple?  

thavoice Senior Member
15,437 posts 41 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 11:00 AM

What does Woke mean?

 

 

geeblock Member
1,123 posts 0 reps Joined May 2018
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 11:02 AM
posted by Belly35

The ongoing eradication of symbolic racial historical artifacts (confederate flag, statues, and monuments) that portrays the history of America as a racist country and slavery, that may stir emotional repression and racism within the Black community be removed because it has a racist connotation. If this is the will of the Black community to the elimination potential racist symbolic of the past than is it racist to present the same symbolic Black Lives Matter to the White, Asian and Hispanic Community? With this be the marching banner of the Black Community, like the Confederate flag to the South. Will the respected Leaders of the Black movement be represented with monuments, with this not stir the same emotional frustration of American racism within the other Ethic communities?  Be careful what you wish for. My feeling is, that this moment in time will set the progress of the eliminations of racism on both sides, this is a perfect and wonderful opportunity for America. However, if America leaders, communities, and citizens start this endeavor of change with symbolic Black Lives Matter / African American connotation / Rioting Frustration we are just repeating the wrong history. All parties must now enter this monumental process, not as Black or White or Political Identities but as non-bias Leadership, supportive communities and faith base joining of people to discover the root of the issue, be honest and truth of the facts, alter policy, education, government and identify the social wrong and provide a solution for the future of Equality America.

Lol well I don’t think anyone is looking for a statue but I do think that I see people I have known for years letting their frustration come out with a lot of ignorance on Facebook. I think their frustration comes because they are tired of hearing about black people or gay people or any group that used to be ignored now being shoved in their face every day. They are feeling piled upon and feeling like white People are now oppressed. While they haven’t exactly said these things this is how I interpret what they are too afraid to say when they post ignorant memes.  I heard a good quote once that said when you are used to a lifetime of privilege, equality feels like oppression. 

geeblock Member
1,123 posts 0 reps Joined May 2018
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 11:26 AM
posted by Spock

Never understood the removal of these.  If it offends you, move to another state that doesnt want to display their history.  Free country right?

I can’t believe they let you teach children. 

Dr Winston O'Boogie Senior Member
3,345 posts 23 reps Joined Oct 2010
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 11:43 AM

I think time will relax some of the excesses of this time.  By that I mean we are in a heightened state with a lot of emotion from every side.  The goodness of the underlying cause will shine through and the extremes (i.e. whites now oppressed, police departments eliminated, etc) will fade.  It's hard to ignore the extreme stuff in this day in age when it's in your face all day online.  But none of that is representative of the vast majority of people involved with this who want equity with their fellow man and desire to get along with others.  Conflict is not a happy way to live for most people.  

So I try to keep my eye on the long view.  Confederate statues coming down doesn't bother me.  As a person who has lived in the south for five years, I am glad to see more attention on this.  The Confederacy and it's use of slavery is not a complex issue as it is sometimes portrayed.  It is a blight on our past.  Glorifying it is no way to move forward.  

8,788 posts 21 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 12:30 PM

I like the sentiment Belly, but ignores the history and facts of the symbols. They are not historical, but rooted in the Lost Cause and Jim Crow ideology. 

It is not like we are erasing all the battlefields, cemeteries, or history books. Those will still remain. Taking down the confederate monuments, renaming military bases away from Confederate generals, and eliminating from public the rebel battle flag is not erasing history or the Confederacy, just putting it in its proper place. 

General Grant said it during the war. "There are two camps now, Patriots and traitors." Yet, throughout this country, the traitors are treated like patriots and what they did and their rational was just and noble. That was due to the creation of this Lost Cause theory that rose up after Reconstruction and basically changed the narrative around the civil war, the south, and all these monuments and symbols. The south lost the war, but won the peace. 

Nearly every single monument erected were many years after the civil war during the Jim Crow years. They were not about history, but promoting the idea that the south's cause was just and noble and therefore right. That is a direct front and fuck you to African Americans in the south. 

Take the Lee statute in Richmond, VA. There is no reason why that statue should be in public land where we normally place celebratory symbols and figures. Instead, it should be in its proper place...on a battlefield or cemetery where the correct context can be made. Yes, they were Americans that fought for their states..yet they believed in slavery, left the Union, and were on the wrong side of history. 

Also, the naming of military bases in the south for Confederate generals occurred as late as the 1940s. Why in the hell would we name a US Army base after a guy who abandoned the very army?  Also, a lot of the generals were shitty generals during the war. Bragg was awful and got his ass whipped by Sherman. Why honor that? 

I've read a lot about this issue over the last few years. Last week I went back and reread the remarks of New Orleans mayor and his rational for taking down the monuments in his city. https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mitchlandrieuconfederatemonuments.htm

Also, former General Petreaus wrote a piece yesterday about the Army bases: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/take-confederate-names-off-our-army-bases/612832/

If we really want to change how we talk about racism and race in this country, we have to address the racist symbols and their past. They are small steps, but they need to be taken down and reframed in their proper context and racist history. 

8,788 posts 21 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 12:42 PM
posted by Spock

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/10/gone-with-the-wind-number-one-best-seller-at-amazon-after-hbo-blacklist/

 

Well Woke got taken to a new level.  Anyone want to start making a list of other movies about to be banned?

Django?  Color Purple?  

Gone with Wind is racist as fuck. It is not even in the same category as the other films you named. 

That said, I don't think the film should be banned or removed, quite the opposite actually. Gone with the Wind should be reframed as a film that shows how racist we were and how the Lost Cause theory about southern way of life and life on a plantation took hold and was successfully told to Americans. 

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX9qZVldxHU

Heretic Son of the Sun
20,517 posts 188 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 1:02 PM

All things considered, the South has nothing to complain about. War losers who were on the wrong side of history and yet, they were able to have statues and their fail-flag erected everywhere in honor of their most elite traitors. If there's backlash against them now and they're getting removed from any setting other than a historical museum or similar location, it's probably long past due.

gut Senior Member
18,369 posts 91 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 1:26 PM

There are a lot of imperfect people, especially judged by today's standards, who did good things.  Various trangressions are hardly equal, but if people have to be practically saints in order to be recognized for something good, then you're not going to be left with too many icons or role models.

That said, I don't understand the outcry over removing statues of losers.  But I also think reminders of the bad parts of our history are important, too.  Removing statues doesn't really fix anything, aside from a pretend effort at appeasement and erasing history.

8,788 posts 21 reps Joined Nov 2009
Wed, Jun 10, 2020 1:42 PM
posted by gut

There are a lot of imperfect people, especially judged by today's standards, who did good things.  Various trangressions are hardly equal, but if people have to be practically saints in order to be recognized for something good, then you're not going to be left with too many icons or role models.

That said, I don't understand the outcry over removing statues of losers.  But I also think reminders of the bad parts of our history are important, too.  Removing statues doesn't really fix anything, aside from a pretend effort at appeasement and erasing history.

Yes, there are imperfect people. Our founding fathers were imperfect and we should look at their faults as well.  I agree those statues and monuments for the fathers should remain. We should also include at various places an examination of their faults. 

But for the Confederate Monuments and symbols. It is not erasing history. There are still cemeteries and battlefields for that. Those cemeteries and battlefields do a great job at explaining that history. It is about removing a statue that was put up by racist to perpetrate the Lost Cause of the Civil War. 

jmog Senior Member
7,737 posts 36 reps Joined Nov 2009
Thu, Jun 11, 2020 12:28 PM
posted by geeblock

I can’t believe they let you teach children. 

To be fair, is gym really teaching? :)

jmog Senior Member
7,737 posts 36 reps Joined Nov 2009
Thu, Jun 11, 2020 12:31 PM
posted by ptown_trojans_1

Gone with Wind is racist as fuck. It is not even in the same category as the other films you named. 

That said, I don't think the film should be banned or removed, quite the opposite actually. Gone with the Wind should be reframed as a film that shows how racist we were and how the Lost Cause theory about southern way of life and life on a plantation took hold and was successfully told to Americans. 

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX9qZVldxHU

I guess it has just been so long since I watched Gone With the Wind that I just don't know if it really is racist or not. I honestly couldn't even tell you right now what the movie is about other than some love story.

Heretic Son of the Sun
20,517 posts 188 reps Joined Nov 2009
Thu, Jun 11, 2020 12:37 PM
posted by jmog

I guess it has just been so long since I watched Gone With the Wind that I just don't know if it really is racist or not. I honestly couldn't even tell you right now what the movie is about other than some love story.

I recall the love story part and that it took part in the south during Civil War times and a couple characters were Scarlett's family's house slaves. But as far as things like tone and whatnot go, I'd have to watch it again to get the gist of all that. And out of my movie collection, it isn't exactly in my Top 10 of stuff I'm in the vibe to re-watch.

jmog Senior Member
7,737 posts 36 reps Joined Nov 2009
Thu, Jun 11, 2020 4:26 PM
posted by Heretic

I recall the love story part and that it took part in the south during Civil War times and a couple characters were Scarlett's family's house slaves. But as far as things like tone and whatnot go, I'd have to watch it again to get the gist of all that. And out of my movie collection, it isn't exactly in my Top 10 of stuff I'm in the vibe to re-watch.

I am with you there.

 

If the movie showed slavery how it was and is somewhat historically correct, I wouldn't call that a racist movie. 

If they went onto glorify slavery like it was a "good thing" then yeah, it was racist. It has just been well over 25 years since I saw the movie and I honestly don't remember.

gut Senior Member
18,369 posts 91 reps Joined Nov 2009
Sat, Jun 13, 2020 6:26 PM

So Atlanta cops kill a drunk guy after he resists and takes away their already-fired tazer.

I mean, how does that trigger a cop to use deadly force?  I think most tazers can only be fired once per cartridge.  It can apparently be used as a stun gun, but the guy would have to be close enough to touch you with the tazer.

I'd be curious to know what percentage of officer involved shootings involve cops that are former military.  I feel like cops who haven't served might be less likely to use their gun.

Dr Winston O'Boogie Senior Member
3,345 posts 23 reps Joined Oct 2010
Wed, Jun 17, 2020 5:49 PM

Where'd Quaker go?  I wonder if the combination of COVID and the protests made his head explode.  We miss you bud, come back.  

QuakerOats Senior Member
11,701 posts 53 reps Joined Nov 2009
Fri, Jun 19, 2020 5:00 PM
posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

Where'd Quaker go?  I wonder if the combination of COVID and the protests made his head explode.  We miss you bud, come back.  

 

Vacation; I tried to social distance as much as possible getting 50 miles offshore to fish.  Then of course, it is hell getting back.   

QuakerOats Senior Member
11,701 posts 53 reps Joined Nov 2009
Fri, Jun 19, 2020 5:08 PM
posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

I think time will relax some of the excesses of this time.  By that I mean we are in a heightened state with a lot of emotion from every side.  The goodness of the underlying cause will shine through and the extremes (i.e. whites now oppressed, police departments eliminated, etc) will fade.  It's hard to ignore the extreme stuff in this day in age when it's in your face all day online.  But none of that is representative of the vast majority of people involved with this who want equity with their fellow man and desire to get along with others.  Conflict is not a happy way to live for most people.  

So I try to keep my eye on the long view.  Confederate statues coming down doesn't bother me.  As a person who has lived in the south for five years, I am glad to see more attention on this.  The Confederacy and it's use of slavery is not a complex issue as it is sometimes portrayed.  It is a blight on our past.  Glorifying it is no way to move forward.  

 

This is true.  Returning from vacation I took an extra day to go up through D.C., partly for work.  We are sitting in a nice restaurant looking over the Potomac River, real nice crowds inside and out.  I look over the bar and the TV is on, tuned to CNN; the headline reads ‘America in Crisis’.  I am sitting among people of many races and many nationalities -  a black couple is seated at the premier table looking over the water, enjoying a special dinner obviously.  It is a wide blend of people simply out having a good time on a beautiful evening.  I thought of the great paradox between the CNN headline and what I was observing then and there.  99% of the people are going about their lives as best they can …..it is sad we have to be continuously bombarded by the media with what the 1% are up to. 

Dr Winston O'Boogie Senior Member
3,345 posts 23 reps Joined Oct 2010
Sat, Jun 20, 2020 8:23 AM
posted by QuakerOats

 

Vacation; I tried to social distance as much as possible getting 50 miles offshore to fish.  Then of course, it is hell getting back.   

Catch anything big?

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