Israel-Palestine

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Nah, the Isreali model is to slowly take more and more Palestinian land to where there is no such thing as a Palestinian state in the west Bank and to isolate the people in Gaza. 

Also, Israel is well known in its history to assassinate and kill people. A great book on the topic was released a few years ago, Rise and Kill First. 

Your line of thinking is also very flawed as the last 20 years have shown us in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, etc in that bombings that kill innocent civilians does more harm than good. Israel is only creating the next generation of enemies with their bombing in Gaza. I know they have to defend themselves, but their actions is the next step in this vicious cycle that is just continuing. 

No one and I mean no one is in the right in this conflict. Neither side really wants peace because it means accepting some deep and hard truths about living together that would strip away what both states stand for: Israel as a a Jewish state and the Palestinians right to return.

It seems people keep trying to overcomplicate the issue in a bizarre effort to blame Israel.

It's been like 80 years - time to move on, for starters.  Wars have consequences - history is filled with people's land being taken.  This is not about Israel, it's about the "religion of peace" and the fact they are using Palestine as pawns in their war against Jews.

And if you want to talk about land being taken and who was there first, well if you go back far enough...

There is no defending Hamas.  Israel has a right to defend itself against terrorist attacks.  It's actually really fucking simple.  But that's the modern left these days, insisting on putting the toothpaste back in the tube (but only to a certain point where it becomes inconvenient to the argument).

posted by gut

It seems people keep trying to overcomplicate the issue in a bizarre effort to blame Israel.

It's been like 80 years - time to move on, for starters.  Wars have consequences - history is filled with people's land being taken.  This is not about Israel, it's about the "religion of peace" and the fact they are using Palestine as pawns in their war against Jews.

And if you want to talk about land being taken and who was there first, well if you go back far enough...

There is no defending Hamas.  Israel has a right to defend itself against terrorist attacks.  It's actually really fucking simple.  But that's the modern left these days, insisting on putting the toothpaste back in the tube (but only to a certain point where it becomes inconvenient to the argument).

Actually ageee with most of this. The old model of two states is dead. The new model is how to incorporate Palestinians and Israelies into 1 state. That's where both sides do not like that reality as it means giving in on their core principles. 

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRv3TA1j/

posted by jmog

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRv3TA1j/

That's right, to a point. He stopped with Korea, because in every future conflict, the increase in the number of civilians killed leads to decreasing military effectiveness. 

Again, especially the last 20 years have shown that it almost impossible to defeat an enemy if you are killing the civilian population. You may kill one terrorist, but you are creating 1-2 more. 

Israel has the right to defend itself sure,but I'm not sure it is doing it effectively. Seems like they are falling into the same trap the US did in the last 20 years. Bombings do nothing to solve the situation on the ground. You may destroy Hamas, but what's left may be just as bad, if not worse, as those remaining Palestinians will see Israel as the enemy still...and the cycle of violence continues.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

That's right, to a point. He stopped with Korea, because in every future conflict, the increase in the number of civilians killed leads to decreasing military effectiveness. 

Again, especially the last 20 years have shown that it almost impossible to defeat an enemy if you are killing the civilian population. You may kill one terrorist, but you are creating 1-2 more. 

Israel has the right to defend itself sure,but I'm not sure it is doing it effectively. Seems like they are falling into the same trap the US did in the last 20 years. Bombings do nothing to solve the situation on the ground. You may destroy Hamas, but what's left may be just as bad, if not worse, as those remaining Palestinians will see Israel as the enemy still...and the cycle of violence continues.

Since you know so well, how should Israel destroy Hamas?

posted by ptown_trojans_1

You may destroy Hamas, but what's left may be just as bad, if not worse, as those remaining Palestinians will see Israel as the enemy still...and the cycle of violence continues.

posted by jmog

Since you know so well, how should Israel destroy Hamas?

No clue. All I know is the track record the last 20 years. Maybe, their strategy will pay off and break this cycle, but I am not betting on it. Also, I would not be surprised if there is blowback down the line. 

That said, I also think a good amount of blame is on the other Arab states, like Egypt. They could do more to assist refugees, but are not. 

posted by iclfan2
Seems like a risk worth taking.

Seems like it. Let's see if it does break the cycle, or is just the latest chapter that does not solve the underlining problem

Ladder fight breaks out after man rips down a Palestine flag in London, England.

A man in a beanie climbed up on a ladder to tear down the Palestine flag when another man in a car noticed and got out to push the ladder out from under him.

Before the driver could get back in his… pic.twitter.com/2OrqGUUsGe

— Collin Rugg (@CollinRugg) December 8, 2023

posted by justincredible

Ladder fight breaks out after man rips down a Palestine flag in London, England.

Eat your heart out, Vince McMahon

Anyone shocked that the Palestinian aid organization(UNRWA) supposedly has 10% of their workforce with ties to terrorism? And even some that were directly involved on 10/7.

(For a non-right leaning source)

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/at-least-12-u-n-agency-employees-involved-in-oct-7-attacks-intelligence-reports-say-a7de8f36

Trump stopped funding to this group… and Biden went right back to funding it when he became President. 

Still laugh seeing losers protesting for Hamas. 

posted by iclfan2

Anyone shocked that the Palestinian aid organization(UNRWA) supposedly has 10% of their workforce with ties to terrorism? And even some that were directly involved on 10/7.

(For a non-right leaning source)

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/at-least-12-u-n-agency-employees-involved-in-oct-7-attacks-intelligence-reports-say-a7de8f36

Trump stopped funding to this group… and Biden went right back to funding it when he became President. 

Still laugh seeing losers protesting for Hamas. 

Hamas tunnel found full of weapons underneath the UNRWA headquarters in Gaza.  The Israelis are about to finish the job in Rafah in the south.  But the cries are out now for them to stop what they did not start.  Maybe we get more "protesters" to block streets.  A sure way to win people over to your side.

I watched Israeli soldiers forcefully remove settlers from the Gaza strip many years ago.  Gaza could have been made a beacon of light.  A beautiful strip of land on the Mediterranean Sea with a great climate.  Imagine the tourist industry that could have been built.   They have been given more than enough money to get something like that going.  Instead they made it a fortress to attack Israel and a shithole for their citizens while many of their leaders and their families live in luxury in foreign countries.

posted by majorspark

The Israelis are about to finish the job in Rafah in the south.  But the cries are out now for them to stop what they did not start.  Maybe we get more "protesters" to block streets.  A sure way to win people over to your side.s.

I guess it works for the current government.  No more offensive weapons if the Israelis finish job in Rafah.  Near defeat militarily yet a great propaganda victory for Hamas.  Bad things coming soon. 

Didn’t Trump get impeached for withholding congressional voted on money to Ukraine? Biden giving in to the pro terrorist leftists will most likely only hurt himself.  Israel is not going to just stop their fight bc we don’t give them weapons. 

posted by iclfan2

Didn’t Trump get impeached for withholding congressional voted on money to Ukraine? Biden giving in to the pro terrorist leftists will most likely only hurt himself.  Israel is not going to just stop their fight bc we don’t give them weapons. 

Well more pundits on the blue side of the aisle are finally coming to the point, which is this: they don't believe that Israel has the right to exist. And because they don't believe that Israel should exist, they justify what Hamas is doing and support "from the river to the sea". 

Congress isn't helping matters by wanting to make anti-zionism the equal of anti-Semitism. Essentially planting the seeds of being critical of Israel is a hate crime. 

While I personally believe that Israel has the right to exist, I'd much rather have the Dem fanatics showcase who and what they are so that the rest of us can counter reason with them/debate, and better prepare on who we decide to vote for in the future. This authoritarian action of silencing dissenting views and/or ugly talk doesn't serve the greater good of anything. And this is a perfect example of how the Republicans in power are actually complicit in the fuckery. I just don't think they are astute enough to comprehend it. 

Silencing, suppressing and censoring never has the intended goal. And so further disintegration happens. 

Biden now holding intel back from Israel to continue to try and save votes. Intel that could result in the death of the head of Hamas. Quite the strategy.

posted by iclfan2

Biden now holding intel back from Israel to continue to try and save votes. Intel that could result in the death of the head of Hamas. Quite the strategy.

I never wanted the US to finance either the Ukraine war or the Israel vs Hamas war. Withholding intelligence will just have the result of more indiscriminate violence upon civilians, which goes against part of which the Dems have stated what their grievance is. The other part is, of course, that Israel doesn't have the right to exist (but not many have openly admitted that yet, as far as I know). 

But that's ok! We will just give more money to Ukraine to keep up the civilian kill count! 

And speaking of Ukraine, they say that somehow $40bil got disappeared.

Hah!

posted by CenterBHSFan

I never wanted the US to finance either the Ukraine war or the Israel vs Hamas war. Withholding intelligence will just have the result of more indiscriminate violence upon civilians, which goes against part of which the Dems have stated what their grievance is. The other part is, of course, that Israel doesn't have the right to exist (but not many have openly admitted that yet, as far as I know). 

But that's ok! We will just give more money to Ukraine to keep up the civilian kill count! 

History can not be ignored.  The current war in Europe is major.  Russia like Germany was is on a total war footing today.  The mix of fuel that created the terrors of Europe during WWII are seen today with our own eyes.  Once again there is a dictator in Europe bent on reclaiming a lost empire.  Hamas and Iran bent on the elimination of the jews.  In Asia like Japan this time its China.  All these ideologies and the powers behind them must be stopped before they unite as they did in the past.

One has to ask himself.  Why the campus protest rage on Israel while Russia openly targets civilians literally razing many cites to the ground.  Why do these "protesters" bring down US flags and raise a foreign one in its place.  We all know .