Guns and Mass Shootings

posted by iclfan2

It is not minuscule. It just isn’t covered. Y’all are all pretending the majority of gun violence isn’t in inner cities. Almost none use “assault weapons”.

Again, the non-gang related mass shootings in this country total a few hundred victims per year.  Your kid is more likely to die from the flu than a mass shooting.  I wonder why we don't hear demands to force flu vaccines on kids?

Sure, we don't have the numbers on how many crimes/murders are prevented by a "good guy with a gun".  But, obviously, it doesn't have to be very many to believe people have a right to self-defense.

posted by Dr Winston O'Boogie

That said, it’s just my opinion, not something I think is feasible.

Hmmmm....Seems odd to whine about people that don't support gun bans that you yourself admit aren't feasible.

If the speed limit were 10mph, we could eliminate virtually all traffic deaths.  But it's not something I think is feasible.

Something missed in these discussions comes from Bastiat's "What is seen and what is not seen". When a tragedy happens, we naturally focus on that tragedy and the downside of firearms ("what is seen"). What gets lost are the daily benefits ("what is not seen"). Defensive gun uses (DGUs) dwarf gun violence incidents, not even close. Not. Remotely. Close. It's a "be careful what you wish for" situation when you're willing to take from the good guys for some gain against the bad guys.

Can we circle back to how could we prevent someone like this from (legally) buying what he did? Can't it raise some red flags somewhere that someone who literally just turned 18 immediately buys two rifles and 375 rounds of ammunition. Oh, he's a high school dropout, he was bullied a lot, has had police at his house numerous times for incidents with his mother who has kicked him out. Maybe we need to investigate this further and he shouldn't have these guns right away. If he goes onto steal one or print one then whatever. I recognize that cat is out of the bag already. But could we have at least made it a little more difficult for him along the way?

posted by ptown_trojans_1

It's one tool out of many to help reduce these tragedies. 

If you believe banning ARs will reduce gun violence you don’t understand what guns/rifles really are. There are 100s of hunting rifles that have the exact same capabilities (rounds, firing rate, muzzle velocity, etc) but they don’t look scary. The literal difference between an AR and a hunting rifle is one is black and scary looking and one is brown/camo color.

posted by ptown_trojans_1

Oh, I do. One within the limits of the law that does not pose a threat to society as a whole. 

So it’s ok for me to own an AR then, as it is within the limits of the law and it doesn’t pose a threat to society.

posted by friendfromlowry

Can't it raise some red flags somewhere that someone who literally just turned 18 immediately buys two rifles and 375 rounds of ammunition. ?

What's the first thing most people do when they turn 21?  I guess they should surrender their car keys because the operating assumption is that they're going to drive drunk, right?

Guy turns 18, buys an AR and ammo for sport.  I bet that's way more typical than you suspect.  Some of those "red flags" would be considered discriminatory in a different context.

The rest of your post is interesting, but I think well outside the scope of the usual background check.  Some of that maybe not, if local reporting is up to snuff.  But I think you're committing two logical fallacies here:  The first is that he waited months, perhaps years until turning 18 but a few more days or weeks is somehow going to change the outcome.  The second is that he would only commit this crime with an AR.

Gun dorks don’t want to budge, simple at that. Mall cops inbound. Fucking joke.

posted by queencitybuckeye

Something missed in these discussions comes from Bastiat's "What is seen and what is not seen". When a tragedy happens, we naturally focus on that tragedy and the downside of firearms.

Chief among that is the fact that freedom is not "free".  Yes, we could significantly reduce gun violence with extreme measures, measures that 95% of Americans would not be at all comfortable with.

Bans and confiscation likely only result in criminals having guns.  Another alternative is pretty well depicted in The Minority Report.

You could harden schools, probably at significant financial cost, but what's a few hundred million for each live saved?  Churches can probably find volunteer guards among their congregation.  But when you consider you can't eliminate every soft target, how much does any of that make sense?

I think it is interesting that most of these shooters seem to be 16-18.  It may not make total sense, but raising the age to purchase guns to 21 might have an impact.  And, curiously, that appears to have bipartisan support.

posted by Automatik

Gun dorks don’t want to budge, simple at that. Mall cops inbound. Fucking joke.

I don't own a gun and have only ever fired a .22 a few times.  That doesn't stop me from educating myself as to the actual facts and rejecting the ignorant emotional appeals from the left.

posted by gut

What's the first thing most people do when they turn 21?  I guess they should surrender their car keys because the operating assumption is that they're going to drive drunk, right?

Guy turns 18, buys an AR and ammo for sport.  I bet that's way more typical than you suspect.  Some of those "red flags" would be considered discriminatory in a different context.

The rest of your post is interesting, but I think well outside the scope of the usual background check.  Some of that maybe not, if local reporting is up to snuff.  But I think you're committing two logical fallacies here:  The first is that he waited months, perhaps years until turning 18 but a few more days or weeks is somehow going to change the outcome.  The second is that he would only commit this crime with an AR.

Gee the car thing seems like a bit of a stretch. I didn't know the 21yo was capable of going into a classroom full of kids and killing them with the case of beer he just bought. Maybe we could treat these as two separate and different things? If he finds another way to commit the crime then like I said, it's become very difficult to prevent that at this point. I recognize that. 

As for the bold part, that's too bad. Didn't seem too hard for someone to quickly find out he wasn't attending school, had a shitty family life, etc. 

posted by gut

I don't own a gun and have only ever fired a .22 a few times.  That doesn't stop me from educating myself as to the actual facts and rejecting the ignorant emotional appeals from the left.

I grew up hunting and shooting guns.     But yes an 18 year old HS drop out buying an AR rather easily is ok? Got it.

Educate yourself to death. How do we curb this major issue?

As an aside, 375 rounds is not a lot of ammo. When I restock, my typical order is 2500-4000 rounds. Not remotely any kind of red flag.

Also, homicides by knife are probably at least double that of AR's.  But there are about a dozen different biases that explain the overly emotional reactions to mass shootings.  And such reactions might very well be a significant explanatory factor in the rise of these events the last 25 years.

Awful tragedies, and you hate to say maybe it deserves less attention rather than more.  But even if you could move heaven and earth to solve the problem, is it actually worth it?  Yes that sounds cold and callous, but in a world of finite resources not every tragedy is avoidable.

A kid is more likely to die from the flu.  And we have vaccines!!!! Where's the equivalent moral outrage?

So do nothing. Got it. Rinse repeat. What a country!

posted by queencitybuckeye

As an aside, 375 rounds is not a lot of ammo. When I restock, my typical order is 2500-4000 rounds.

Well then that's even more of a red flag!  If it were for sport he would have bought more!!!!

posted by Automatik

So do nothing. Got it. Rinse repeat. What a country!

No, do something that will actually make a difference, not just throw shit against the wall to see what sticks while patting yourself on the back for "doing something".

Despite the political differences, good policies still get bipartisan support.  Perhaps someday the Dems will realize that.

posted by gut

No, do something that will actually make a difference, not just throw shit against the wall to see what sticks while patting yourself on the back for "doing something".

Despite the political differences, good policies still get bipartisan support.  Perhaps someday the Dems will realize that.

What will make a difference? I’m open to anything at this point. 

posted by Automatik

I grew up hunting and shooting guns.     But yes an 18 year old HS drop out buying an AR rather easily is ok? Got it.

So highschool dropouts are irresponsible gun owners?  Very elitist.  I wonder how you would feel if someone said a high school dropout shouldn't be allowed to vote?

Look, you and a few others get all fired up by mass shootings and cop killings.  Combined, those number in the low 100's.  The only reason it's so important to you is that's what the talking idiots on CNN and MSNBC bukkake you with.  Meanwhile, you either are unaware or don't care of the TENS OF THOUSANDS of African Americans dying each year due to  medical bias, because that's not the agenda.  God forbid Nancy Pelosi have to fight her way through a mob to get medical care.

posted by Automatik

What will make a difference? I’m open to anything at this point. 

I'm asking you.  There's no evidence legal gun sales are a signficant factor.  If I'm mistaken, feel free to post the research.

And I've already said hardening schools and raising the age to 21.  There's data that suggests that could have an actual impact, but fall well short of eliminating the threat.