I haven't read exactly WHAT this new bill will do.
Will taxes go up? Will taxes go down?
Who will be helped? Who will be hurt?
What choices (if any) do/will we have?
Who gets to keep existing health care?
Who has to change or get new health care?

I don't really get all of this.

Can someone please post a link to a complete, non-biased rundown of what this bill will actually do? Thank you.

I want to be able to make an educated, well-informed decision on if I support this bill or not, without being swayed by political affiliation.

Thank you.

I found this:
http://www.sdnn.com/sandiego/2010-03-22/politics-city-county-government/state-health/final-health-care-reform-bill-details

Any others?

Health care for all...lower taxes....lower costs, better care.

Utopia is upon us.

From the link I posted: "$940 billion over ten years" - How is that being paid for?

Little to late to decide now isn't it?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000846-503544.html

Medicare Payroll tax on investment income -- Starting in 2012, the Medicare Payroll Tax will be expanded to include unearned income. That will be a 3.8 percent tax on investment income for families making more than $250,000 per year ($200,000 for individuals).

Excise Tax -- Beginning in 2018, insurance companies will pay a 40 percent excise tax on so-called "Cadillac" high-end insurance plans worth over $27,500 for families ($10,200 for individuals). Dental and vision plans are exempt and will not be counted in the total cost of a family's plan.

Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services.

Another good summary.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704117304575137370275522704.html

ccrunner609 wrote:

BCSbunk wrote: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000846-503544.html

Medicare Payroll tax on investment income -- Starting in 2012, the Medicare Payroll Tax will be expanded to include unearned income. That will be a 3.8 percent tax on investment income for families making more than $250,000 per year ($200,000 for individuals).

Excise Tax -- Beginning in 2018, insurance companies will pay a 40 percent excise tax on so-called "Cadillac" high-end insurance plans worth over $27,500 for families ($10,200 for individuals). Dental and vision plans are exempt and will not be counted in the total cost of a family's plan.

Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services.

And all of that will be passed onto the customer so why does it matter what they tax.

Not this time it won't.

With the exchange program they will price themselves right out of existence.

ccrunner609 wrote: Someone has to pay and its us regardless of where or what.

What you mean the government does not produce its own wealth. Color me shocked.

ccrunner609 wrote:

BCSbunk wrote:

ccrunner609 wrote:

BCSbunk wrote: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000846-503544.html

Medicare Payroll tax on investment income -- Starting in 2012, the Medicare Payroll Tax will be expanded to include unearned income. That will be a 3.8 percent tax on investment income for families making more than $250,000 per year ($200,000 for individuals).

Excise Tax -- Beginning in 2018, insurance companies will pay a 40 percent excise tax on so-called "Cadillac" high-end insurance plans worth over $27,500 for families ($10,200 for individuals). Dental and vision plans are exempt and will not be counted in the total cost of a family's plan.

Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services.

And all of that will be passed onto the customer so why does it matter what they tax.

Not this time it won't.

With the exchange program they will price themselves right out of existence.

Someone has to pay and its us regardless of where or what.

I have shown how it will be paid for. More competition lowers prices and the exchange will make more competition and more choices for you.

At most places of employment you get very little choice it is what they offer or go pick your own at high rates. Now you will have more choices because of more competition.

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/7908.pdf

For a bit of information on the healthcare exchanges.

So the insurance companies will just eat all of the extra expenses and still stay in business? Of course not, so when they go out of business, where is the competition? There is none, because the government will be the only insurance provider left. Then when $5 trillion annual deficits are the norm, who in their right mind is going to lend us money to fund this shit?

Cleveland Buck wrote: So the insurance companies will just eat all of the extra expenses and still stay in business? Of course not, so when they go out of business, where is the competition? There is none, because the government will be the only insurance provider left. Then when $5 trillion annual deficits are the norm, who in their right mind is going to lend us money to fund this shit?

Yes they will because the monopolies have been busted. Now more competition will arise.

Competition is good, monopoly is bad. The insurance companies effective monopolies have been broken now prices will lower and competition will go up.

Unless of course you want to argue that monopolies are healthy and competition is bad?

BCSbunk wrote:

Cleveland Buck wrote: So the insurance companies will just eat all of the extra expenses and still stay in business? Of course not, so when they go out of business, where is the competition? There is none, because the government will be the only insurance provider left. Then when $5 trillion annual deficits are the norm, who in their right mind is going to lend us money to fund this shit?

Yes they will because the monopolies have been busted. Now more competition will arise.

Competition is good, monopoly is bad. The insurance companies effective monopolies have been broken now prices will lower and competition will go up.

Unless of course you want to argue that monopolies are healthy and competition is bad?

Your argument would make sense if the insurance companies were making ridiculous profit margins. If they were making 100% profit margin, then they could eat these increased costs and remain in business, just making less money. The fact is they are making 3-5% profit. The increased costs will put them out of business if they can't raise their premiums. They are not monopolies. The drug companies are monopolies. The biggest banks are monopolies. The investment banks are monopolies. The insurance companies are not.

Cleveland Buck wrote:

BCSbunk wrote:

Cleveland Buck wrote: So the insurance companies will just eat all of the extra expenses and still stay in business? Of course not, so when they go out of business, where is the competition? There is none, because the government will be the only insurance provider left. Then when $5 trillion annual deficits are the norm, who in their right mind is going to lend us money to fund this shit?

Yes they will because the monopolies have been busted. Now more competition will arise.

Competition is good, monopoly is bad. The insurance companies effective monopolies have been broken now prices will lower and competition will go up.

Unless of course you want to argue that monopolies are healthy and competition is bad?

Your argument would make sense if the insurance companies were making ridiculous profit margins. If they were making 100% profit margin, then they could eat these increased costs and remain in business, just making less money. The fact is they are making 3-5% profit. The increased costs will put them out of business if they can't raise their premiums. They are not monopolies. The drug companies are monopolies. The biggest banks are monopolies. The investment banks are monopolies. The insurance companies are not.

It's no use arguing. If you don't think this bill is the greatest thing to happen to this country, you're clearly a nut job. We'll see in a few years how everyone likes it. This sets a very dangerous precedent. I can't wait for the next part of the economy to be taken over by the government.

Wow, maybe they can mandate that everyone in America has to buy a GM vehicle in the interests of interstate commerce? That's clearly within their rights now, I guess. Get your pocketbooks out. Commerce inactivity is no longer allowed. You WILL participate in commerce or be fined. The gestapo will be coming to get you.

BCSbunk wrote:

Tanning Tax -- 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services.

Can't say I have a problem with that one.

tk421 wrote:

Cleveland Buck wrote:

BCSbunk wrote:

Cleveland Buck wrote: So the insurance companies will just eat all of the extra expenses and still stay in business? Of course not, so when they go out of business, where is the competition? There is none, because the government will be the only insurance provider left. Then when $5 trillion annual deficits are the norm, who in their right mind is going to lend us money to fund this shit?

Yes they will because the monopolies have been busted. Now more competition will arise.

Competition is good, monopoly is bad. The insurance companies effective monopolies have been broken now prices will lower and competition will go up.

Unless of course you want to argue that monopolies are healthy and competition is bad?

Your argument would make sense if the insurance companies were making ridiculous profit margins. If they were making 100% profit margin, then they could eat these increased costs and remain in business, just making less money. The fact is they are making 3-5% profit. The increased costs will put them out of business if they can't raise their premiums. They are not monopolies. The drug companies are monopolies. The biggest banks are monopolies. The investment banks are monopolies. The insurance companies are not.

It's no use arguing. If you don't think this bill is the greatest thing to happen to this country, you're clearly a nut job. We'll see in a few years how everyone likes it. This sets a very dangerous precedent. I can't wait for the next part of the economy to be taken over by the government.

Wow, maybe they can mandate that everyone in America has to buy a GM vehicle in the interests of interstate commerce? That's clearly within their rights now, I guess. Get your pocketbooks out. Commerce inactivity is no longer allowed. You WILL participate in commerce or be fined. The gestapo will be coming to get you.

Again with the freaking Nazi comparisons. LJ and Ptown should delete this shit every single time it comes up...insulting, insensitive, and ridiculous.

We all understand your point, but constantly referring to the "SS" and the "Gestapo" and the "Brown Shirts" should be akin to other racial insults.

Anyone with any grasp of the Holocaust and Nazi Germany would 1.) never make these comments because they know they don't fit and 2.) be ashamed to compare our situation, in any way, to that of Nazi Germany, or at least the groups that carried out the worst atrocities that world has ever seen.

cbus4life wrote:

tk421 wrote:

Cleveland Buck wrote:

BCSbunk wrote:

Cleveland Buck wrote: So the insurance companies will just eat all of the extra expenses and still stay in business? Of course not, so when they go out of business, where is the competition? There is none, because the government will be the only insurance provider left. Then when $5 trillion annual deficits are the norm, who in their right mind is going to lend us money to fund this shit?

Yes they will because the monopolies have been busted. Now more competition will arise.

Competition is good, monopoly is bad. The insurance companies effective monopolies have been broken now prices will lower and competition will go up.

Unless of course you want to argue that monopolies are healthy and competition is bad?

Your argument would make sense if the insurance companies were making ridiculous profit margins. If they were making 100% profit margin, then they could eat these increased costs and remain in business, just making less money. The fact is they are making 3-5% profit. The increased costs will put them out of business if they can't raise their premiums. They are not monopolies. The drug companies are monopolies. The biggest banks are monopolies. The investment banks are monopolies. The insurance companies are not.

It's no use arguing. If you don't think this bill is the greatest thing to happen to this country, you're clearly a nut job. We'll see in a few years how everyone likes it. This sets a very dangerous precedent. I can't wait for the next part of the economy to be taken over by the government.

Wow, maybe they can mandate that everyone in America has to buy a GM vehicle in the interests of interstate commerce? That's clearly within their rights now, I guess. Get your pocketbooks out. Commerce inactivity is no longer allowed. You WILL participate in commerce or be fined. The gestapo will be coming to get you.

Again with the freaking Nazi comparisons. LJ and Ptown should delete this shit every single time it comes up...insulting, insensitive, and ridiculous.

We all understand your point, but constantly referring to the "SS" and the "Gestapo" and the "Brown Shirts" should be akin to other racial insults.

Anyone with any grasp of the Holocaust and Nazi Germany would 1.) never make these comments because they know they don't fit and 2.) be ashamed to compare our situation, in any way, to that of Nazi Germany, or at least the groups that carried out the worst atrocities that world has ever seen.

What comparison would you like me to make for a government agency (IRS) who has been said to be the "enforcers" of this mandate? You have no choice. Any refund due to you will be confiscated. Penalties will be applied. I bet the IRS will not be nice to work with. What exactly would you like me to compare them to?

Not people who indiscriminately had people arrested, sent to concentration camps, "disposed of," essentially helped to carry out the reign of terror, along with the Waffen SS, on all those in Nazi-occupied Germany.

Sorry, just a sore spot with me at the moment, especially considering a recent meeting with a friend from undergrad whose grandfather was an inmate at Buchenwald from 1939 to liberation, and was sent there because he was falsely accused of a crime he did not commit...by the Gestapo.

Senseless fear mongering, IMO.

cbus4life wrote: Not people who indiscriminately had people arrested, sent to concentration camps, "disposed of," essentially helped to carry out the reign of terror, along with the Waffen SS, on all those in Nazi-occupied Germany.

Sorry, just a sore spot with me at the moment, especially considering a recent meeting with a friend from undergrad whose grandfather was an inmate at Buchenwald from 1939 to liberation, and was sent there because he was falsely accused of a crime he did not commit...by the Gestapo.

Senseless fear mongering, IMO.

Yes, I get that. The literal meaning of gestapo though is secret state police. I wouldn't necessarily call the IRS secret, but they would qualify for state police. Especially under this new bill.

tk421 wrote:

cbus4life wrote: Not people who indiscriminately had people arrested, sent to concentration camps, "disposed of," essentially helped to carry out the reign of terror, along with the Waffen SS, on all those in Nazi-occupied Germany.

Sorry, just a sore spot with me at the moment, especially considering a recent meeting with a friend from undergrad whose grandfather was an inmate at Buchenwald from 1939 to liberation, and was sent there because he was falsely accused of a crime he did not commit...by the Gestapo.

Senseless fear mongering, IMO.

Yes, I get that. The literal meaning of gestapo though is secret state police. I wouldn't necessarily call the IRS secret, but they would qualify for state police. Especially under this new bill.

Fair enough, and to clarify, i'm against this bill as well, despite my political leanings. Not the reform i was hoping for at all.

cbus4life wrote:

tk421 wrote:

Cleveland Buck wrote:

BCSbunk wrote:

Cleveland Buck wrote: So the insurance companies will just eat all of the extra expenses and still stay in business? Of course not, so when they go out of business, where is the competition? There is none, because the government will be the only insurance provider left. Then when $5 trillion annual deficits are the norm, who in their right mind is going to lend us money to fund this shit?

Yes they will because the monopolies have been busted. Now more competition will arise.

Competition is good, monopoly is bad. The insurance companies effective monopolies have been broken now prices will lower and competition will go up.

Unless of course you want to argue that monopolies are healthy and competition is bad?

Your argument would make sense if the insurance companies were making ridiculous profit margins. If they were making 100% profit margin, then they could eat these increased costs and remain in business, just making less money. The fact is they are making 3-5% profit. The increased costs will put them out of business if they can't raise their premiums. They are not monopolies. The drug companies are monopolies. The biggest banks are monopolies. The investment banks are monopolies. The insurance companies are not.

It's no use arguing. If you don't think this bill is the greatest thing to happen to this country, you're clearly a nut job. We'll see in a few years how everyone likes it. This sets a very dangerous precedent. I can't wait for the next part of the economy to be taken over by the government.

Wow, maybe they can mandate that everyone in America has to buy a GM vehicle in the interests of interstate commerce? That's clearly within their rights now, I guess. Get your pocketbooks out. Commerce inactivity is no longer allowed. You WILL participate in commerce or be fined. The gestapo will be coming to get you.

Again with the freaking Nazi comparisons. LJ and Ptown should delete this shit every single time it comes up...insulting, insensitive, and ridiculous.

We all understand your point, but constantly referring to the "SS" and the "Gestapo" and the "Brown Shirts" should be akin to other racial insults.

Anyone with any grasp of the Holocaust and Nazi Germany would 1.) never make these comments because they know they don't fit and 2.) be ashamed to compare our situation, in any way, to that of Nazi Germany, or at least the groups that carried out the worst atrocities that world has ever seen.

Nancy spent the entire summer doing it, and she doesn't seem to be suffering any consequences. Why should a bunch of lowly internets posters suffer if Her Majesty gets a pass?

cbus4life wrote: Fair enough, and to clarify, i'm against this bill as well, despite my political leanings. Not the reform i was hoping for at all.

Just give it a decade or two. Obama himself said it may take twenty years to get to single payer. This will get the ball rolling.

Pelosi is a douche as well, btw.

I would still hit it, though.

cbus4life wrote: Pelosi is a douche as well, btw.

I would still hit it, though.

With a 2X4. Multiple times.

Here's a detail nobody is talking about:

Where are all the physicians going to come from to handle all these new patients?

Especially when a number of doctors are already leaving both Medicare and Medicaid because of the cuts in payments for those services?

Even if those physicians weren't leaving, we already have a fairly significant shortage of primary care doctors -- and here we are MANDATING that basic, primary care be included in any insurance program sold (and you have to buy it, now) -- but there aren't enough primary care docs now to handle everyone.

This is going to create a huge problem of physician shortages in areas that are already underserved, and you are going to see longer and longer waits to see doctors, if you can find one at all.

There are so many things wrong with this bill that will likely take things down the shitter for health care in this country, but a lack of providers is going to be one of the first ones we'll start hearing about.

It will be cute to see how the feds begin forcing doctors to take on patients they don't have the resources to handle.