Surprised there hasn't been a thread on this already.

VP Biden's trip to Israel last week was suppose to help Israel and the U.S. gain common ground on Iran, yet it turned into a big PR nightmare for Israel as the Interior Minister the same day Biden arrived announced more settlements in East Jerusalem. Biden, and Bibi were caught off guard, with Bibi saying he was sorry for the announcement, but not the settlements. SECSTATE Clinton then called Bibi and had a not so diplomatic phone call with the Israeli PM. Then Sunday David Axelrod (not a fan btw) issued some more tough language on Meet the Press.

Now, Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren (great writer btw) is saying that this slipup has put Israeli-U.S. relations at its worst in 35 years.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0310/Israeli_ambassador_USIsrael_relations_in_crisis.html?showall
(Note: Lauren Rozen has some pretty good stuff on foreign policy)

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62E11O20100315

Also of note, apparently CENTCOM held a briefing with Adm. Mullen that pretty much said, the U.S. has lost a ton of credibility in the Arab world by not standing up to Israel or being seen as been equal to the way the U.S. is handling the Palestinian issue and this is leading to huge strategic problems for the U.S. military in the region. http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0310/The_PetraeusMullen_briefings_.html?showall


My view is, this is a crisis, but a needed one. For too long the U.S. has let the Israelis walk on them in regard to settlements. Condi tried to be tough a few years ago, but nothing came from it. The U.S. hasn't been tough since SECSTATE Baker nearly 20 years ago. Yes, the U.S. and Israel share a common purpose and strategic alliance. Yet, the Israelis cannot keep making it impossible to solve the Palestine issue by building in the most important area for Palestinians. Tough love is in order at this point. The U.S. will always be allies with Israel, but sometimes harsh diplomacy and equality is in order.

My question would be... what could America do to correct or solve this situation?

Do we stay uninvolved and be called complicit?
Or do we get involved (again) and be called the uninvited Big Brother?

Clearly, no matter what our policies are going to be, we are in a rock/hard place situation.
There will always be somebody doing some accusatory complaining.

Agree with it being a "needed" crisis.

Time to get tough.

Sick and tired of the Israelis building settlements in some of the most important areas for Palestinians. Makes it impossible for progress and peace to happen between the two.

Yeah, surprised eers is not all over this one.

I haven't much time to study it, but Israel apparently deserves the rebuke.

CenterBHSFan wrote: My question would be... what could America do to correct or solve this situation?

Do we stay uninvolved and be called complicit?
Or do we get involved (again) and be called the uninvited Big Brother?

Clearly, no matter what our policies are going to be, we are in a rock/hard place situation.
There will always be somebody doing some accusatory complaining.

Considering the Israelis and Palestinians are not going to have peace by themselves, the U.S. is really the only mediator that can act to help peace. Now, both sides need to want it to make it happen. But, no other country can really have the authority or respectability to be a middle man. The Turks and Saudis have tried and failed so far.

Really, the U.S. is the only country that can. But, again, is neither side wants peace, as is currently, then it will not happen. It is a tough situation, one that even experts think is not going anywhere soon.

So what I gather from this story is that it's time for America to stop favoring Isreal if they are going to continue to overstep their limits, and treat them like how we treat the rest of the Palestinian nations?

Jeruselem in realty has become a lost cause for the palestinians. It would take the force of arms to remove the isreali settlers. As populations expand in an urban area there will be more settlements. The populaition will force it.

The problem, as I see it is this.

Israel keeps expanding settlements. Palestine keeps antagonizing, also.
Then BOTH sides want to play the victim.

To me, it is useless and futile to even try to point fingers, because one isn't above the other.

I don't see what can be very fruitful in helping to alleviate the problem here.

Israel is moving towards an apartheid situation with the Palestinians if this continues. A one state solution will be impossible if they want to keep Israel as an entirely Jewish state, but by expanding into all of the territories that would eventually make up a Palestinian state they are also making a 2 state solution impossible.

Bibi needs to avoid overplaying his hand right now, because while he knows the U.S gives him free autonomy to do whatever he wants with no recourse on our part arrogantly slapping us in the face and treating us like a chump is not the best idea if you're looking to perpetuate the status quo in perpetuity.

HitsRus wrote: Yeah, surprised eers is not all over this one.

I haven't much time to study it, but Israel apparently deserves the rebuke.

I'm all over it. I've just tired of politics on messageboards. Few productive discussions ever result from them.

Even if you support Israel, I don't know how any American could respect Netanyahu basically giving Biden the finger and announcing more settlements while he was there.

This is a welcome development in US/Israeli relations. Public opinion is finally starting to turn away from giving Israel for their actions.


Here is the current checkerboard of Palestinian land in the West Bank.

This is sickening. How the jewish people can do this to the Palestineans after being only a few generations removed from the Holocaust is beyond me.

I don't condone how the Palestineans fight back, but I also can understand their anger and frustration. Israel is 20X more powerful than Palestine and the Palestineans are desperate.

The United States needs to finally take a firm stand against the injustice that the Israelis are imposing on the Palestineans. Many of my jewish friends here in the US are very much against the actions of Israel.

dwccrew wrote: How the jewish people can do this to the Palestineans after being only a few generations removed from the Holocaust is beyond me.

I stopped reading after that

ohiobucks1 wrote:

dwccrew wrote: How the jewish people can do this to the Palestineans after being only a few generations removed from the Holocaust is beyond me.

I stopped reading after that

And you felt the need to tell us? No one cares.

I saw this quote in an article I was reading about this and it is amazing how the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Over 20 years ago, then-Secretary of State James Baker said “Every time I have gone to Israel in connection with the peace process on each of my trips I have been met with the announcement of new settlement activity. This does violate United States policy.”

We fail by making the assumption that there is even a possibility of peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

We faced a similar problem with the American Indians as the Isrealis currently have with the Palestinians. It didn't end for us until we beat the hell out of them, took their land, and hearded them onto worthless reservations. Many agreements were made, but lasting piece was not made until total victory by one side was achieved. Anybody want to give their land back? Sucks for some but this is how the world is governed, by the aggressive use of force. Military and economic.

Believer pretty much summed it up. Peace talks, ceasfires, and peace agreements absent of total victory, only allow the two sides to reposition and rebuild for the next round of fighting.

believer wrote: We fail by making the assumption that there is even a possibility of peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

I'm not sold on that line of thinking. No one would have thought of peace between Israel and Egypt in 1979 nor Israel and Jordan in 1994.

Granted, it is a far ways off and neither side wants it right now. But, that does not mean it is never possible.

believer wrote: We fail by making the assumption that there is even a possibility of peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

There have been other instances in the region where it was thought peace was "impossible" between two countries, and yet it was achieved.

ohiobucks1 wrote:

dwccrew wrote: How the jewish people can do this to the Palestineans after being only a few generations removed from the Holocaust is beyond me.

I stopped reading after that

Well, considering that the Israeli's seemingly have an "apartheid" situation in place currently, and the fact that Palestinians have faced arbitrary killings, being herded into camps without cause, and the loss of their homes for no reason and then having them given to Jews...it is quite shocking.

I'm not saying that what is going on there in any way amounts to the Holocaust, not even close.

But, some of the few policies of the Israeli government are strikingly similar to what they went through in Nazi Germany, though on a much smaller scale.

The confiscation of property is most striking to me. The Israeli's are "resettling" the Palestinians and forcing them to live in horrendous conditions, comparable to the Jewish ghettos on some level. Quite terrible.

I can't ignore the fact that some Israeli policies, on a smaller level, mirror those perpetuated against them under Nazi rule.

For a nice view of the conflict from the innocent Palestinian's view, read Joe Sacco's Palestine. Obviously written from a Palestinian perspective, but it is constructed based on research and interviews conducted in the region. Good stuff.

dwccrew wrote: This is sickening. How the jewish people can do this to the Palestineans after being only a few generations removed from the Holocaust is beyond me.

I don't think it is the Jewish people...but a very bellicose Zionist government that has a chip on their shoulder

majorspark wrote: We faced a similar problem with the American Indians as the Isrealis currently have with the Palestinians. It didn't end for us until we beat the hell out of them, took their land, and hearded them onto worthless reservations. Many agreements were made, but lasting piece was not made until total victory by one side was achieved. Anybody want to give their land back? Sucks for some but this is how the world is governed, by the aggressive use of force. Military and economic.

Believer pretty much summed it up. Peace talks, ceasfires, and peace agreements absent of total victory, only allow the two sides to reposition and rebuild for the next round of fighting.

And for world peace, this type of expansionism needs to stop. We have annexed Iraq and Afghanistan in similar fashion.

Footwedge wrote:

dwccrew wrote: This is sickening. How the jewish people can do this to the Palestineans after being only a few generations removed from the Holocaust is beyond me.

I don't think it is the Jewish people...but a very bellicose Zionist government that has a chip on their shoulder

True.

Footwedge wrote:

dwccrew wrote: This is sickening. How the jewish people can do this to the Palestineans after being only a few generations removed from the Holocaust is beyond me.

I don't think it is the Jewish people...but a very bellicose Zionist government that has a chip on their shoulder

This is going to be crazy for man on here, but I'm going to play devil's advocate for the government.

Those settlers are some of the biggest religious extremists in the world. Israel also has some of the biggest extremists living within it's border. If they government tried to dismantle the settlements they would likely face assassination attempts.

Extremists already assassinated Rabin and Count Bernadotte. They are powerful, and they are deadly.

So what is the goal? The goal is force a rupture in the governing coalition that will make it necessary for Netanyahu to take into his government Livni's centrist Kadima Party (he has already tried to do this, but too much on his terms) and form a broad, 68-seat majority in Knesset that does not have to rely on gangsters, messianists and medievalists for votes.

I found this article in the Atlantic about what it is exactly BHO is trying to do right now with regards to Israel.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/03/what-obama-is-actually-trying-to-do-in-israel/37548/

We faced a similar problem with the American Indians as the Isrealis currently have with the Palestinians. It didn't end for us until we beat the hell out of them, took their land, and hearded them onto worthless reservations. Many agreements were made, but lasting piece was not made until total victory by one side was achieved. Anybody want to give their land back? Sucks for some but this is how the world is governed, by the aggressive use of force. Military and economi

The big difference is no one cared about the Native Americans. The land the Israeli's and Palestinians are fighting over happens to be of vital interest to 3 of the world's largest religions, a hands off approach doesn't work so well.

As long as we give Israel $3 billion dollars a year to buy guns, we are going to have some say in what goes on over there. We "allow" Israel to win right now so to speak, but we have to appear to be somewhat of a neutral broker because given our interests in that region we don't have the luxury of alienating the whole region to pander to Israel's whims and desires the way we used to.

Footwedge wrote:

dwccrew wrote: This is sickening. How the jewish people can do this to the Palestineans after being only a few generations removed from the Holocaust is beyond me.

I don't think it is the Jewish people...but a very bellicose Zionist government that has a chip on their shoulder

True, I should have been more clear.