Archive Don't Ask, Don't Tell

C

cbus4life

Posts: 2,849

Feb 4, 2010 8:53am

From what i've seen, the top brass seem to say yes, the senators on the Armed Forces Committee seem to say no.

What do you think?

derek bomar

Posts: 3,722

Feb 4, 2010 10:09am

Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve

2quik4u

Posts: 4,388

Feb 4, 2010 10:25am

derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve

they do serve

LJ

Posts: 16,351

Feb 4, 2010 10:37am

Honestly, the policy should be "Don't ask, don't tell, don't care"

Your sexual preference makes no difference to how you can fight. When you get hired for a job they don't ask your sexual preference, but they don't fire you if they find out you are gay.

Q

queencitybuckeye

Posts: 7,117

Feb 4, 2010 10:48am

LJ wrote: Honestly, the policy should be "Don't ask, don't tell, don't care"

Exactly what I thought. Who cares?

To the vast majority of the homophobes here, I would point out that just as women as a group don't find you attractive, neither do gay men. You have nothing to worry about.

IggyPride00

Posts: 6,482

Feb 4, 2010 10:55am

I would keep the spirit of it alive, but I don't think if someone is found out to be gay that they should be fired if they aren't bringing it into the workplace.

S

Swamp Fox

Posts: 2,218

Feb 4, 2010 11:13am

Bill Murray said it the best. "It just doesn't matter!"

Ytowngirlinfla

Posts: 2,295

Feb 4, 2010 11:20am

It shouldn't matter at all, everyone knows typically who's gay and who's not. Most people don't care at all. I don't believe you should ever be kicked out for it.

derek bomar

Posts: 3,722

Feb 4, 2010 11:22am

2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve

not if they are truthful

LJ

Posts: 16,351

Feb 4, 2010 11:27am

derek bomar wrote:
2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve
not if they are truthful

That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?

derek bomar

Posts: 3,722

Feb 4, 2010 11:29am

LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve
not if they are truthful
That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?

They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.

It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then

LJ

Posts: 16,351

Feb 4, 2010 11:35am

derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve
not if they are truthful
That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?
They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.

It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then

While I agree that it should be "don't ask, don't tell, don't care" I just don't agree with that logic at all. Also, nobody can ask.

derek bomar

Posts: 3,722

Feb 4, 2010 11:42am

LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve
not if they are truthful
That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?
They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.

It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then
While I agree that it should be "don't ask, don't tell, don't care" I just don't agree with that logic at all. Also, nobody can ask.

I don't think you get what I'm saying...

say you're gay and me and I'm your buddy in the service and we're out for beers one night and we start shooting the shit.

"say LJ, look at the broad over there...big ole titties huh?..."

you get the general direction where that convo would head. Just because you can't "ask" if someone's gay doesn't mean you can't talk to each other like a guy, and in some cases a gay dude would either be forced to lie, say nothing, or be honest. One instance he's outright lying, one he's lying by omission, and the third he's gettin booted out of the service...

LJ

Posts: 16,351

Feb 4, 2010 11:45am

derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve
not if they are truthful
That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?
They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.

It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then
While I agree that it should be "don't ask, don't tell, don't care" I just don't agree with that logic at all. Also, nobody can ask.
I don't think you get what I'm saying...

say you're gay and me and I'm your buddy in the service and we're out for beers one night and we start shooting the shit.

"say LJ, look at the broad over there...big ole titties huh?..."

you get the general direction where that convo would head. Just because you can't "ask" if someone's gay doesn't mean you can't talk to each other like a guy, and in some cases a gay dude would either be forced to lie, say nothing, or be honest. One instance he's outright lying, one he's lying by omission, and the third he's gettin booted out of the service...

I already told you I don't agree with your logic, so stop trying to explain yourself to me.

Glory Days

Posts: 7,809

Feb 4, 2010 11:48am

derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve
not if they are truthful
That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?
They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.

It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then
While I agree that it should be "don't ask, don't tell, don't care" I just don't agree with that logic at all. Also, nobody can ask.
I don't think you get what I'm saying...

say you're gay and me and I'm your buddy in the service and we're out for beers one night and we start shooting the shit.

"say LJ, look at the broad over there...big ole titties huh?..."

you get the general direction where that convo would head. Just because you can't "ask" if someone's gay doesn't mean you can't talk to each other like a guy, and in some cases a gay dude would either be forced to lie, say nothing, or be honest. One instance he's outright lying, one he's lying by omission, and the third he's gettin booted out of the service...

what about straight guys who dont like big ole titties but would lie to feel like part of the group?

derek bomar

Posts: 3,722

Feb 4, 2010 11:52am

LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve
not if they are truthful
That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?
They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.

It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then
While I agree that it should be "don't ask, don't tell, don't care" I just don't agree with that logic at all. Also, nobody can ask.
I don't think you get what I'm saying...

say you're gay and me and I'm your buddy in the service and we're out for beers one night and we start shooting the shit.

"say LJ, look at the broad over there...big ole titties huh?..."

you get the general direction where that convo would head. Just because you can't "ask" if someone's gay doesn't mean you can't talk to each other like a guy, and in some cases a gay dude would either be forced to lie, say nothing, or be honest. One instance he's outright lying, one he's lying by omission, and the third he's gettin booted out of the service...
I already told you I don't agree with your logic, so stop trying to explain yourself to me.

and I don't agree with your disagreement...bottom line is gays can't openly serve. Can't really see how you can think not being able to be open is somehow not lying, but whatever bro

derek bomar

Posts: 3,722

Feb 4, 2010 11:52am

Glory Days wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve
not if they are truthful
That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?
They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.

It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then
While I agree that it should be "don't ask, don't tell, don't care" I just don't agree with that logic at all. Also, nobody can ask.
I don't think you get what I'm saying...

say you're gay and me and I'm your buddy in the service and we're out for beers one night and we start shooting the shit.

"say LJ, look at the broad over there...big ole titties huh?..."

you get the general direction where that convo would head. Just because you can't "ask" if someone's gay doesn't mean you can't talk to each other like a guy, and in some cases a gay dude would either be forced to lie, say nothing, or be honest. One instance he's outright lying, one he's lying by omission, and the third he's gettin booted out of the service...
what about straight guys who dont like big ole titties but would lie to feel like part of the group?

he wouldn't have to lie, he could say I like small titties, or medium titties, etc...the gay guy has to lie in order to stay.

LJ

Posts: 16,351

Feb 4, 2010 11:55am

derek bomar wrote:
and I don't agree with your disagreement...bottom line is gays can't openly serve. Can't really see how you can think not being able to be open is somehow not lying, but whatever bro

So not being openly hetero is lying too? I honestly don't believe any sexual preference should be allowed to "openly" serve. It's of no consequence on being able to perform their duties, therefore should not be discussed or of anyone's concern.

Glory Days

Posts: 7,809

Feb 4, 2010 11:59am

derek bomar wrote:
Glory Days wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve
not if they are truthful
That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?
They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.

It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then
While I agree that it should be "don't ask, don't tell, don't care" I just don't agree with that logic at all. Also, nobody can ask.
I don't think you get what I'm saying...

say you're gay and me and I'm your buddy in the service and we're out for beers one night and we start shooting the shit.

"say LJ, look at the broad over there...big ole titties huh?..."

you get the general direction where that convo would head. Just because you can't "ask" if someone's gay doesn't mean you can't talk to each other like a guy, and in some cases a gay dude would either be forced to lie, say nothing, or be honest. One instance he's outright lying, one he's lying by omission, and the third he's gettin booted out of the service...
what about straight guys who dont like big ole titties but would lie to feel like part of the group?
he wouldn't have to lie, he could say I like small titties, or medium titties, etc...the gay guy has to lie in order to stay.

and the gay guy could say "no, i dont like big titties". where is the lie there?

derek bomar

Posts: 3,722

Feb 4, 2010 11:59am

Glory Days wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
Glory Days wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
2quik4u wrote:
derek bomar wrote: Boggles my mind why you wouldn't let them serve
they do serve
not if they are truthful
That just don't make any sense. How can they be untruthful if you aren't allowed to ask?
They're going into an arrangement where they know ahead of time if they admit something truthful about themselves if ever asked, or tell someone off the cuff something truthful about themselves, they won't be allowed to serve. I just don't see the fact that just because somebody doesn't ask you something, it's not lying that you didn't tell them.

It's a lie of omission in my book. And I would venture to guess most if not all are asked in some form by their buddies or higher ups in a social setting, i.e. talking about all the girls back home or what not... and they'd be forced to lie then
While I agree that it should be "don't ask, don't tell, don't care" I just don't agree with that logic at all. Also, nobody can ask.
I don't think you get what I'm saying...

say you're gay and me and I'm your buddy in the service and we're out for beers one night and we start shooting the shit.

"say LJ, look at the broad over there...big ole titties huh?..."

you get the general direction where that convo would head. Just because you can't "ask" if someone's gay doesn't mean you can't talk to each other like a guy, and in some cases a gay dude would either be forced to lie, say nothing, or be honest. One instance he's outright lying, one he's lying by omission, and the third he's gettin booted out of the service...
what about straight guys who dont like big ole titties but would lie to feel like part of the group?
he wouldn't have to lie, he could say I like small titties, or medium titties, etc...the gay guy has to lie in order to stay.
and the gay guy could say "no, i dont like big titties". where is the lie there?

lol...he is lying. That's the point.

derek bomar

Posts: 3,722

Feb 4, 2010 12:02pm

LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
and I don't agree with your disagreement...bottom line is gays can't openly serve. Can't really see how you can think not being able to be open is somehow not lying, but whatever bro
So not being openly hetero is lying too? I honestly don't believe any sexual preference should be allowed to "openly" serve. It's of no consequence on being able to perform their duties, therefore should not be discussed or of anyone's concern.

In a perfect world, sexual preference shouldn't matter. But since there is a policy of not allowing gays to openly serve, being openly gay causes you to be discharged...you're looking at things as if they happen in a perfect world where people don't talk about things like sex and relationships, but they do. So when that happens, the gays are forced to lie, and the straights don't have to.

C

cbus4life

Posts: 2,849

Feb 4, 2010 12:13pm

Mullen should be praised for his comments, as should SecDef Gates.

"No matter how I look at the issue," Mullen said, "I cannot escape being troubled by the fact that we have in place a policy which forces young men and women to lie about who they are in order to defend their fellow citizens." Noting that he was speaking for himself and not for the other service chiefs, Mullen added: "For me, it comes down to integrity — theirs as individuals and ours as an institution."

So nice to hear him talk about "integrity" in regards to this issue. Really impressed by the way he handled himself in fron of the Armed Services Committee.

LJ

Posts: 16,351

Feb 4, 2010 12:23pm

derek bomar wrote:
LJ wrote:
derek bomar wrote:
and I don't agree with your disagreement...bottom line is gays can't openly serve. Can't really see how you can think not being able to be open is somehow not lying, but whatever bro
So not being openly hetero is lying too? I honestly don't believe any sexual preference should be allowed to "openly" serve. It's of no consequence on being able to perform their duties, therefore should not be discussed or of anyone's concern.
In a perfect world, sexual preference shouldn't matter. But since there is a policy of not allowing gays to openly serve, being openly gay causes you to be discharged...you're looking at things as if they happen in a perfect world where people don't talk about things like sex and relationships, but they do. So when that happens, the gays are forced to lie, and the straights don't have to.

Well excuse me for wanting a policy that makes sense enacted. I just think it's funny that you refuse to acknowledge the heterosexual people who are "lying by omission" when not stating their sexual preference one way or another.

derek bomar

Posts: 3,722

Feb 4, 2010 12:28pm

It doesn't matter if straights lie by omission or not, since there job doesn't depend on it and there's not a policy prohibiting them from being honest about something.

There shouldn't be a policy on sexual policy at all, but the current one we have forces one set to lie in order to keep their job and doesn't force that same stipulation on the other set of people...

majorspark

Posts: 5,122

Feb 4, 2010 12:39pm

derek bomar wrote: It doesn't matter if straights lie by omission or not, since there job doesn't depend on it and there's not a policy prohibiting them from being honest about something.

There shouldn't be a policy on sexual policy at all, but the current one we have forces one set to lie in order to keep their job and doesn't force that same stipulation on the other set of people...

If a straight soldier is banging someone else's wife or if he is married and is banging somone else, he could lose his job. The military just decides which sexual practices get discliplined.