ptown_trojans_1;1864092 wrote:If that is the case, let the Pentagon announce and roll the policy out.

Sincere question, is that how Obama handled creating the policy?

queencitybuckeye;1864096 wrote:Sincere question, is that how Obama handled creating the policy?

The repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was through Congress as well as a lengthy DOD review process.
The inclusion of women in combat was rolled out by the DOD last year.

ptown_trojans_1;1864099 wrote:The repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was through Congress as well as a lengthy DOD review process.
The inclusion of women in combat was rolled out by the DOD last year.

Good, as usually Obama was as addicted to TV cameras as Trump is to Twitter.

As long as the trans person doesn't insist on making political propaganda (such as the link below) while on duty, I don't care. Men and women both can handle weaponry.

Not going to post the image, and click at your own risk!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFdJyokXkAApQdy.jpg

It seems most vets are in favor of it. I'd like to see a poll of current active duty members. I am willing to bet they would heavily be in favor.

The SJWs per usual are turning this into a black/white issue. You can support transgenders doing whatever the fuck they want and also support the DoD's decision. I don't know why people are shocked the DoD is a discriminatory employer. They always have been and always will be.

Btw, what do you all think the reaction would have been if Mattis made the announcement vs Trump being a child and tweeting it?

like_that;1864229 wrote:Btw, what do you all think the reaction would have been if Mattis made the announce vs Trump being a child and tweeting it?

That is an interesting point; on one hand it is easier for Trump to let Mattis handle it and provides Trump some small semblance of cover; on the other hand Trump has the balls to make the announcement and take all the heat, unlike the last CIC.

QuakerOats;1864252 wrote:That is an interesting point; on one hand it is easier for Trump to let Mattis handle it and provides Trump some small semblance of cover; on the other hand Trump has the balls to make the announcement and take all the heat, unlike the last CIC.

On the third hand, a smart leader allows the people who are smarter that he in certain areas the autonomy to make important decisions.

Interesting that some seem to think it's more important for a president to show he has "balls" than to show he has competence, self discipline, maturity, etc.

Or that military policy orders are now delivered via fucking Twitter.

Let's talk logical for a minute and not worry about emotions and feelings.

1. Trump was utterly stupid for announcing such a policy shift in the military, on a hot button topic, via twitter. But this should be no surprise, he has no tact nor understanding on how things should be played out.
2. Now, putting the "Trump is a moron" aside, let's look at reality.
3. There are a variety of reasons, much less benign, than transgender to be excluded from the military. For Instance:
If you have diabetes you are not allowed in. If you develop diabetes while in, you are discharged unless you can prove you can control it. This is due to the unknown supply of medication in certain deployed fields. Think about hormone replacement meds having to be available in the field in Afghanistan or the soldier has serious medical problems.
If you have ANY mental condition/disorder (anxiety, depression, etc) you can not enlist in the military.
I could keep naming others.
4. The suicide rate among transgenders is 41%. Among the overall US it is 4.6%. Even among those that were "bullied", the suicide rate is less than 10%. So, it is not "just" being bullied that has caused the suicide rate for transgenders to be so high. There is a reason transgender is still listed as a mental disorder similar to anxiety, depression, body dysmorphia disorders like anorexia, etc. There is a mental disorder problem somewhere (depression over the difference in one's body actually is vs what they feel they are, similar to anorexic's belief they are fat when they are bone skinny) that is causing the fact that transgenders are committing suicide at far higher numbers than anyone else that has ever been bullied. Bullying is a HUGE problem, expecially against the LGBT community, but if it was only bullying causing the transgender suicide rate problem then we would have similar suicide rates among homosexual boys, as they are bullied mercilessly in school.
5. If there is a mental condition, known or unknown, and all other mental conditions are excluded from military service, then why is it such a shock that the military has excluded them in all 250 years save the last year?
6. If I knew there was a 40+% chance that the person next to me in combat, who was responsible for my life, would commit suicide at some point, I would not feel safe in their hands.

Now, personally I don't have a problem with Transgenders in the military, but I am no expert, I am just looking at it logically and can see how generals would come to this conclusion.

Oh, and Trump is still an idiot.

Heretic;1864034 wrote:So, today's story in "THAT'S OUR POLITICS" is a draft-dodger deciding who can and cannot choose to actually do military service. Good to know.

+1

Heretic;1864262 wrote:Interesting that some seem to think it's more important for a president to show he has "balls" than to show he has competence, self discipline, maturity, etc.

I didn't say "it's more important"; I was just putting forth a couple of scenarios. Obviously the last 3 attributes you listed are exceedingly important.

queencitybuckeye;1864258 wrote:On the third hand, a smart leader allows the people who are smarter that he in certain areas the autonomy to make important decisions.

He did, the generals and military leaders made the recommendation.

like_that;1864229 wrote:Btw, what do you all think the reaction would have been if Mattis made the announcement vs Trump being a child and tweeting it?

so you are a child if you use twitter?

Spock;1864302 wrote:so you are a child if you use twitter?

Google "professionalism."

like_that;1864229 wrote:Btw, what do you all think the reaction would have been if Mattis made the announcement vs Trump being a child and tweeting it?

If it was made through the proper channels, DOD led, I would be annoyed, but would have made sense.

QuakerOats;1864297 wrote:He did, the generals and military leaders made the recommendation.

Well.....the SECDEF wasn't there and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs said they have no idea what the policy is as they are waiting on the White House to give them guidance. So, I wonder what generals and leaders were there?
He also said, "There will be no modifications to the current policy until the President's direction has been received by the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary has issued implementation guidance.”
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/27/trump-transgender-military-ban-no-modification-241029

Again, the argument is more the President made this roll out a clusterfuck by not going trough the proper channels and blindsiding the DOD. Doesn't sound like he listened to his generals as it sounds like the generals were like, "WTF?"

ptown_trojans_1;1864306 wrote:If it was made through the proper channels, DOD led, I would be annoyed, but would have made sense.


Well.....the SECDEF wasn't there and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs said they have no idea what the policy is as they are waiting on the White House to give them guidance. So, I wonder what generals and leaders were there?
He also said, "There will be no modifications to the current policy until the President's direction has been received by the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary has issued implementation guidance.”
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/27/trump-transgender-military-ban-no-modification-241029

Again, the argument is more the President made this roll out a clusterfuck by not going trough the proper channels and blindsiding the DOD. Doesn't sound like he listened to his generals as it sounds like the generals were like, "WTF?"

So, I interpret this you are more upset that Trump made the announcement than the actual policy itself.

Also, I am not surprised Gen Dunford said that. The military believes in distributing orders thru the chain of command.

like_that;1864310 wrote:So, I interpret this you are more upset that Trump made the announcement than the actual policy itself.

Also, I am not surprised Gen Dunford said that. The military believes in distributing orders thru the chain of command.

Correct.
It is more the President used Twitter to change a huge DOD policy without the proper channels or vetting by the DOD. It was completely irresponsible by the President.
Even if I approved the policy, like the Syrian strikes, the fact he went through twitter is just dumb. It created more headaches and cause a shit ton of confusion at the DOD.

If the DOD wants to ban transgender soldiers, then go through the DOD vetting process and also go through Congress and the NDAA process.
I don't believe in the ban at all, but the process is the more important issue to me on this one.

Will the President pull out of trade agreements through twitter without telling the State Dept or Trade office? Will he order a strike somewhere without convening his full NSC?

ptown_trojans_1;1864312 wrote:Correct.
It is more the President used Twitter to change a huge DOD policy without the proper channels or vetting by the DOD. It was completely irresponsible by the President.
Even if I approved the policy, like the Syrian strikes, the fact he went through twitter is just dumb. It created more headaches and cause a shit ton of confusion at the DOD.

If the DOD wants to ban transgender soldiers, then go through the DOD vetting process and also go through Congress and the NDAA process.
I don't believe in the ban at all, but the process is the more important issue to me on this one.

Will the President pull out of trade agreements through twitter without telling the State Dept or Trade office? Will he order a strike somewhere without convening his full NSC?

I don't disagree with you. If you're going to tweet it, at least wait until it is finalized and just tweet the image of the memo with the tweet saying something to the tune of "Mattis conference at (insert time)."

ptown_trojans_1;1864312 wrote:I don't believe in the ban at all

Curious as to why.

Do you think tax dollars should be spent on transitioning individuals? Do you think that the 9 month down period afterwards is fair to taxpayers? Do you disagree with combat vets who describe being out in the dessert by themselves already psychologically terrible and that an already mental disorder would be even worse? Did you complain that it was banned for 7.5 years under Obama?

I read today that 90% of vets (from 1 study) who consider themselves transgender have at least 1 mental health disorder (source sciencedaily.com).

like_that;1864314 wrote:I don't disagree with you. If you're going to tweet it, at least wait until it is finalized and just tweet the image of the memo with the tweet saying something to the tune of "Mattis conference at (insert time)."

Agreed.

iclfan2;1864320 wrote:Curious as to why.

Do you think tax dollars should be spent on transitioning individuals? Do you think that the 9 month down period afterwards is fair to taxpayers? Do you disagree with combat vets who describe being out in the dessert by themselves already psychologically terrible and that an already mental disorder would be even worse? Did you complain that it was banned for 7.5 years under Obama?

I read today that 90% of vets (from 1 study) who consider themselves transgender have at least 1 mental health disorder (source sciencedaily.com).

I'm not a fan of DOD paying for surgery. That should be on the own dime of the solider and you can rotate them out for the 9 months if they so chose and take a different tour or job. Take a desk job or logistics post. (I'll also note, I think the DOD should make soldiers and families pay for more of their healthcare as that is eating the DOD budget alive.)

I don't disagree or agree with vets, as that is their own experience, which is why the DOD likes to vet this from top to bottom. If the DOD says it is better to ban them, ok, that is the policy. If it says it is better to keep it open, then fine.

iclfan2;1864320 wrote:Curious as to why.

Do you think tax dollars should be spent on transitioning individuals? Do you think that the 9 month down period afterwards is fair to taxpayers? Do you disagree with combat vets who describe being out in the dessert by themselves already psychologically terrible and that an already mental disorder would be even worse? Did you complain that it was banned for 7.5 years under Obama?

I read today that 90% of vets (from 1 study) who consider themselves transgender have at least 1 mental health disorder (source sciencedaily.com).

There are two types of soldiers you do not want by your side. Those who are physically and/or mentally unable to get the job done.

Anything that takes you out of the fight, physically and mentally, makes one combat ineffective and non deployable.

As I said earlier, if they were to be allowed to stay in it is not out of the picture to mandate that they not go through the change while in as it makes them unable to be forward deployed.

iclfan2;1864320 wrote: I read today that 90% of vets (from 1 study) who consider themselves transgender have at least 1 mental health disorder (source sciencedaily.com).

That should be 90% have at least TWO mental health disorders....gender dysphoria used to be considered a mental disorder, correctly IMO. Until we stopped trying to ignore and downplay gender in society and started to say "to hell with it, just pick your own gender". Instead of treating these individuals, the solution is now to inconvenience millions of people and at the cost of millions of dollars.

ptown_trojans_1;1864306 wrote:If it was made through the proper channels, DOD led, I would be annoyed, but would have made sense.


Well.....the SECDEF wasn't there and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs said they have no idea what the policy is as they are waiting on the White House to give them guidance. So, I wonder what generals and leaders were there?
He also said, "There will be no modifications to the current policy until the President's direction has been received by the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary has issued implementation guidance.”
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/27/trump-transgender-military-ban-no-modification-241029

Again, the argument is more the President made this roll out a clusterfuck by not going trough the proper channels and blindsiding the DOD. Doesn't sound like he listened to his generals as it sounds like the generals were like, "WTF?"

There is no real policy here. Trump tweeted this to rile up his fans and get a new banner on Drudge - and that Jazz.

Oddly enough because the left chases the shiny thing will be focusing on this issue while the GOP might actually work on Obamacare reform in conference