the rich get richer

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M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Jan 26, 2014 2:23 PM
"gosh a ruddies that did not happen in Norway, Denmark and Finland that has the best school system with outstanding public universities"

Outstanding is overstating it....adequate is more likely. But the difference between them and us is they don't have a President touting "college for everyone!" They understand it isn't. I'm an American through and through. If I was a 20,000 foot tall giant I'd have one leg in New York, one leg in Los Angeles and my private parts hanging somewhere probably around Kansas City. But one thing I've learned about EU socialism is that it trumps America's version of socialism. They understand it more. They are willing to make the sacrifices more. They are willing to make life less independent for their citizens and admitted residents.

People can make arguments if the EU model is better (I disagree, the economy is miserable and there is a lot of public outcry about the EU's future), but those folks can't argue that if it works for them, it should work for the United States. We aren't the EU. We are independent, we are diverse, we are a nation of many cultures not just Swedish culture (as an example), we are founded on a nation of freedom and personal choice and pursuit of happiness. So much it was included in our founding documents. Many of us value personal responsibility over government intervention, and many of those that disagree are rentseekers inside the beltway that rely on big government. In short, we (the US) suck at socialism, so why are we continuing to move farther in that direction?
Jan 26, 2014 2:23pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2014 5:15 PM
gosh a ruddies MH, Finland, Norway and Denmark, all do a better job at giving their citizens a good chance at the pursuit of happiness. Notice above they all allow a much better chance at upward social mobility than America. And one reason is free post secondary education.
Jan 26, 2014 5:15pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jan 26, 2014 6:00 PM
Those poor, poor people living in the US. Now ask yourself one question: If the Euro-socialism is so good and evil, greedy US capitalism is so bad...why are the median incomes in the US substantially higher than nearly all OECD countries?

The UK median income is 80% of that in the US...and then it goes down pretty quickly from there. LMAO at Spain, Italy, Greece - looks like socialism is just making EVERYONE poor....but, hey, at least their wealth gap isn't as bad as ours (which is one way to do it).


Jan 26, 2014 6:00pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jan 26, 2014 6:06 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;1572290 wrote:but those folks can't argue that if it works for them, it should work for the United States.
I'm not sure they can even argue it works for them - just ask France, Greece, Italy, Spain....Ireland....who am I forgetting?
Jan 26, 2014 6:06pm
A

Al Bundy

Senior Member

4,180 posts
Jan 26, 2014 6:08 PM
isadore;1572347 wrote:gosh a ruddies MH, Finland, Norway and Denmark, all do a better job at giving their citizens a good chance at the pursuit of happiness. Notice above they all allow a much better chance at upward social mobility than America. And one reason is free post secondary education.
In the United States if a student takes high school seriously and does well and has parents in a lower income bracket, he/she will have a free (or very close to it) post secondary education.
Jan 26, 2014 6:08pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2014 6:11 PM
Al Bundy;1572372 wrote:In the United States if a student takes high school seriously and does well and has parents in a lower income bracket, he/she will have a free (or very close to it) post secondary education.
no, not for the large majority in that situation
Jan 26, 2014 6:11pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jan 26, 2014 6:15 PM
isadore;1572373 wrote:no, not for the large majority in that situation
But pretty much guaranteed low interest rate loans for school. Which, if the person really is college material and makes smart choices, is no problem to pay off (i.e. you don't drop $200k on a Art History degree from Columbia).
Jan 26, 2014 6:15pm
M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Jan 26, 2014 6:52 PM
isadore;1572347 wrote:gosh a ruddies MH, Finland, Norway and Denmark, all do a better job at giving their citizens a good chance at the pursuit of happiness. Notice above they all allow a much better chance at upward social mobility than America. And one reason is free post secondary education.
And you ignored my entire point. How many non-Danes/Fins/Norwegians/Swedes enjoy those benefits?

It is easy to be socialist with your own people. They don't allow immigration. I would love to see an American liberal try to immigrate into Norway......better have a US$150,000 job ready for you.
Jan 26, 2014 6:52pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:21 PM
Manhattan Buckeye;1572392 wrote:And you ignored my entire point. How many non-Danes/Fins/Norwegians/Swedes enjoy those benefits?

It is easy to be socialist with your own people. They don't allow immigration. I would love to see an American liberal try to immigrate into Norway......better have a US$150,000 job ready for you.
why would I immigrate to Norway, lets just adopt their policies.
Jan 26, 2014 7:21pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:29 PM
gut;1572371 wrote:I'm not sure they can even argue it works for them - just ask France, Greece, Italy, Spain....Ireland....who am I forgetting?
Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Canada
Oh they don't fit your example.
All better health care and life span than US
All more social mobility
and at least 3, free post secondary education
Jan 26, 2014 7:29pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:34 PM
gut;1572376 wrote:But pretty much guaranteed low interest rate loans for school. Which, if the person really is college material and makes smart choices, is no problem to pay off (i.e. you don't drop $200k on a Art History degree from Columbia).
gosh a ruddies, all you folks are such authorities on this, I wonder what students actually think.
they don't agree with you guys.
http://www.iop.harvard.edu/student-debt-viewed-major-problem-financial-considerations-important-factor-most-millennials-when

"Regardless of whether or not they have debt, 57 percent of Millennials under 30 believe that student debt is a major problem for young people in the United States -- and another 22 percent believe its a minor problem. Overall, 79 percent say its a problem, four percent say it is not a problem.
In total, 70 percent of our sample reported that financial circumstances played an important (41% very, 29% somewhat) role in their decision whether or not to pursue a college education. "
Jan 26, 2014 7:34pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:41 PM
isadore;1572406 wrote:Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Canada
Oh they don't fit your example.
All better health care and life span than US
All more social mobility
and at least 3, free post secondary education
With the exception of Norway, all the examples you cite are so far behind the median disposable income in the US that you can easily pay for your healthcare (for those not covered by an employer or union plan, which is less than half the country, at least pre-Obamakare) and student loans and have money left over.

So what matters more - a contrived concept of "mobility" or actual disposable income?

I think you'll find taxes/"social insurance" are higher in those countries and contribute, in part, to lower disposable incomes. There are no free rides.
Jan 26, 2014 7:41pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:48 PM
isadore;1572408 wrote:gosh a ruddies, all you folks are such authorities on this, I wonder what students actually think.
they don't agree with you guys.
LMAO - you mean to tell me that the entitlement generation doesn't like having to pay back a loan for college?
Jan 26, 2014 7:48pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:49 PM
isadore;1572220 wrote:Free secondary education has already happened, although many right wing royalists would like it done away with. But free Post secondary education is a very achievable goal. The massive profits made by the economic elite of America are a rich source of funding. There is obvious interest in it and millions who can not afford to take the opportunity. And of course in the new evolving economy further education and training are increasingly necessary.

I didn't say it wasn't achievable. I don't see it happening. OWA may have popped that fantasy anytime soon.
Jan 26, 2014 7:49pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:53 PM
isadore;1572405 wrote:why would I immigrate to Norway, lets just adopt their policies.

Inclusive of their immigration policies????
Jan 26, 2014 7:53pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:54 PM
Hahaha....I think liberals have already spent all the money the wealthy have 10 times over....

Free healthcare? The rich will pay for it
Free college? The rich will pay for it

If we just taxed the rich enough I don't think anyone would even have to work! Well, except the rich - we'd need them to keep working to provide for us.
Jan 26, 2014 7:54pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:56 PM
gut;1572424 wrote:Hahaha....I think liberals have already spent all the money the wealthy have 10 times over....

Free healthcare? The rich will pay for it
Free college? The rich will pay for it

If we just taxed the rich enough I don't think anyone would even have to work! Well, except the rich - we'd need them to keep working to provide for us.
Why would they possibly continue to work? There would be no reason for them to stay in the US.
Jan 26, 2014 7:56pm
Q

QuakerOats

Senior Member

8,740 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:58 PM
isadore;1572035 wrote:sir or m'am gosh a ruddies I started thread to comment on the problem that existed, and to offer possible solutions to it.


Why is it a problem?

Jesus the Lord said we will always have the poor with us.
Jan 26, 2014 7:58pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2014 7:59 PM
gut;1572417 wrote:With the exception of Norway, all the examples you cite are so far behind the median disposable income in the US that you can easily pay for your healthcare (for those not covered by an employer or union plan, which is less than half the country, at least pre-Obamakare) and student loans and have money left over.

So what matters more - a contrived concept of "mobility" or actual disposable income?

I think you'll find taxes/"social insurance" are higher in those countries and contribute, in part, to lower disposable incomes. There are no free rides.
gosh a ruddies, you got your health care paid from systems that provide care that allow you to live longer than Americans, you got your kids education paid for, pretty sweet
and those countries median incomes are not far from ours and they do not have those expenses.
and they get to live longer.
Jan 26, 2014 7:59pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2014 8:01 PM
QuakerOats;1572429 wrote:Why is it a problem?

Jesus the Lord said we will always have the poor with us.
I know Ebenezer, the poor are always with us. Just there are some of us that want to allow them a true chance to better themselves
Jan 26, 2014 8:01pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2014 8:02 PM
Con_Alma;1572423 wrote:Inclusive of their immigration policies????
adopt their positive policies, forget the rest.
Jan 26, 2014 8:02pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2014 8:03 PM
gut;1572420 wrote:LMAO - you mean to tell me that the entitlement generation doesn't like having to pay back a loan for college?
a decent nation, a land of opportunity, would provide them with free post secondary education
Jan 26, 2014 8:03pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jan 26, 2014 8:05 PM
isadore;1572436 wrote:a decent nation, a land of opportunity, would provide them with free post secondary education
Decent is subjective.
Jan 26, 2014 8:05pm
C

Con_Alma

Senior Member

12,198 posts
Jan 26, 2014 8:05 PM
isadore;1572433 wrote:adopt their positive policies, forget the rest.
People disagree what is positive in their policies and what isn't...including you and me.
Jan 26, 2014 8:05pm
I

isadore

Senior Member

7,762 posts
Jan 26, 2014 8:07 PM
Here is a guy who knows who the true victims are
“
Venture Capitalist Compares 'Progressive War On 1 Percent' To Nazi Anti-Semitism”
Venture capitalist Thomas Perkins wrote a letter to the editors at the Wall Street Journal, comparing the plight of the rich to the Holocaust, called "Progressive Kristallnacht Coming?"... and the WSJ published it.
"I would call attention to the parallels of fascist Nazi Germany to its war on its 'one percent,' namely its Jews, to the progressive war on the American one percent, namely the 'rich,'" Perkins writes. Thomas Perkins, one of the founders of venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caulfield & Byers, was comparing taxes on the super rich to the slaughter of millions in the Holocaust.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/25/taxes-rich-holocaust_n_4665676.html
Somebody for you guys hearts to bleed for
Jan 26, 2014 8:07pm