isadore;1343474 wrote:Thank you. I live to learn.

You're quite welcome.

Con_Alma;1343473 wrote:...and that's a testament that the "gun lobby" will not be weakened by events like today.

Events that show the threat to young children can have some effect. But what can have a greater effect was what happened on Nov. 6th, NRA endorsed candidates tooks a beating.

BoatShoes;1343478 wrote:I mean consider this. The kid who murdered was on anti-depressants living in a home with a bunch of legally owned guns. Is it really that outrageous for instance to try to restrict guns from being in a home with people living there on anti-depressants? We regularly pass laws restricting the right to abortion which the Courts have also determined is a guaranteed right. These types of steps are reasonable things that could be done that the People have a compelling interest in doing.

The difference is there are enough people who don't want such restrictions to keep it from happening.

isadore;1343480 wrote:Events that show the threat to young children can have some effect. But what can have a greater effect was what happened on Nov. 6th, NRA endorsed candidates tooks a beating.

Of course they can have an effect.

They won't have enough effect to weaken the gun lobby enough to rid us of the right to bare arms.

Con_Alma;1343477 wrote:A police power amendment is not desired by nearly enough people to make it a reality for it would infringe upon gun ownership.

How do you know? Even if what you say is true, it could be. That's what the political process is. In fact, people support nuclear weapons, the FBI, the CIA, the department of Homeland Security, the ATF, the Defense of Marriage Act, The Violence Against Women Act....these are all truly expressions of police power that cannot reasonably be inferred from a literal/original understanding of the powers granted to Congress that conservatives especially employ when interpreting the document. When you break it down into actual laws that don't fit within broad, liberal readings of the commerce clause amplified by the necessary and proper clause the federal government already functionally has a police power granted to them by the people through the years and years of passing laws in furtherance of such a power and this would simply make it official and do away with the sudden finding of religion when it suits political preference.

Con_Alma;1343481 wrote:The difference is there are enough people who don't want such restrictions to keep it from happening.

How do you know? That does not have to always be the case. It is not natural law.

BoatShoes;1343485 wrote:How do you know? That does not have to always be the case. It is not natural law.

..because it hasn't happened. When the masses pressure legislators it will happen. It hasn't after 15 mass shootings this year.

It does not indeed have to always be the case.

BoatShoes;1343483 wrote:How do you know? Even if what you say is true, it could be. ....

I don't dispute that it could be. I am only stating that it's not.

Con_Alma;1343482 wrote:Of course they can have an effect.

They won't have enough effect to weaken the gun lobby enough to rid us of the right to bare arms.

In the not too distant past, people would not have believed the limitations placed on cigarette use today.
At one time in the past slavery was constitutionally protected.
In our not too distant past
many of us would never have believed the majority of Americans would support gay marriage and we would have an African American elected to two terms as our President.
thinks change.

WebFire;1343422 wrote:Hey guys, I have an idea! Let's make drugs illegal, then our drug problem will be gone! We'll even go so far to make it illegal to buy and sell! And hell, even consume!

Countries that have tried prohibition have failed. Countries that have tried significant gun control have succeeded. These propositions may not hold true in the future but the sun may also fail to rise tomorrow. The best we can do is rely on the evidence from the natural experiments of other countries similarly situated and do our best.

isadore;1343492 wrote:In the not too distant past, people would not have believed the limitations placed on cigarette use today.
At one time in the past slavery was constitutionally protected.
In our not too distant past
many of us would never have believed the majority of Americans would support gay marriage and we would have an African American elected to two terms as our President.
thinks change.

We aren't there. We may be one day. That day isn't today.

BoatShoes;1343493 wrote:Countries that have tried prohibition have failed. Countries that have tried significant gun control have succeeded. These propositions may not hold true in the future but the sun may also fail to rise tomorrow. The best we can do is rely on the evidence from the natural experiments of other countries similarly situated and do our best.

You define failure differently than me. Prohibition was effective in expressing through law that which the legislators were seeking to steer the country towards. Many laws are created in that vain. The people didn't want it and the masses pressure the representative to rid it.

That's how it should work.

Con_Alma;1343494 wrote:We aren't there. We may be one day. That day isn't today.

we went from the 18th to the 21st amendment in thirteen years.
after 8 years of bush the younger we were ready to elect an African American President
Ellen degeneres gets an afternoon talk show, an pretty soon working class married women are ready to support gay marriage. thinks can happen pretty fast. If we are decent people the slaughter of 18 American children should make us rethink guns.

isadore;1343500 wrote:we went from the 18th to the 21st amendment in thirteen years.
after 8 years of bush the younger we were ready to elect an African American President
Ellen degeneres gets an afternoon talk show, an pretty soon working class married women are ready to support gay marriage. thinks can happen pretty fast. If we are decent people the slaughter of 18 American children should make us rethink guns.

They can happen fast indeed...and yet in this case they haven't. Maybe someday...not today.

In 'Merica, shit talking after a basketball game escalates into gun violence. I'm sure Arsenal fans might feel like putting a bullet in a Man U fan from time to time but it's a bit harder to make that happen there.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-2-bulls-fans-shot-after-game-in-philadelphia-20121213,0,5549222.story

Thinking guns will be restricted after several hundred years of use because horrific acts against children have occurred is a fantasy.

It's much deeper culturally than that.

BoatShoes;1343502 wrote:In 'Merica, shit talking after a basketball game escalates into gun violence. I'm sure Arsenal fans might feel like putting a bullet in a Man U fan from time to time but it's a bit harder to make that happen there.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-2-bulls-fans-shot-after-game-in-philadelphia-20121213,0,5549222.story

Outside 'Merica soccer fans prefer crushing.

majorspark;1343513 wrote:Outside 'Merica soccer fans prefer crushing.

No no NO....'Mericans are the only violent peeps on the planet and it's all because we allow the peeps to own guns that force sociopaths to shoot young children. Get it right.

We should follow the enlightened socialist European model where everyone lives in bliss and only the gubmint carries guns to control crushing at fuuuuuuuuutebol extravaganzas.

The paradigm shift in our culture away from God, family, and individual virtues like selflessness, forgiveness, giving, and integrity have been replaced by selfishness, narcissism, materialism, and immediate gratification. The breakdown of our core family culture has retarded individual coping skills in today's fast paced, all-about-me culture.

This creates a fertile environment for the propagation of psychopathic & sociopathic behaviors among the obviously mentally unstable.

The answers to tragedies like this will never lie in any amount of gun-control laws current or planned, but rather in the core of our cultural values system.

We, as a society, should be ashamed of ourselves....not for failing to pile on more & more worthless gun-control laws, but for failing to establish the moral values and individual accountability necessary for a safe and healthy social network.

believer;1343548 wrote:The paradigm shift in our culture away from God, family, and individual virtues like selflessness, forgiveness, giving, and integrity have been replaced by selfishness, narcissism, materialism, and immediate gratification. The breakdown of our core family culture has retarded individual coping skills in today's fast paced, all-about-me culture.

This creates a fertile environment for the propagation of psychopathic & sociopathic behaviors among the obviously mentally unstable.

The answers to tragedies like this will never lie in any amount of gun-control laws current or planned, but rather in the core of our cultural values system.

We, as a society, should be ashamed of ourselves....not for failing to pile on more & more worthless gun-control laws, but for failing to establish the moral values and individual accountability necessary for a safe and healthy social network.

:thumbup:

believer;1343548 wrote:The paradigm shift in our culture away from God, family, and individual virtues like selflessness, forgiveness, giving, and integrity have been replaced by selfishness, narcissism, materialism, and immediate gratification. The breakdown of our core family culture has retarded individual coping skills in today's fast paced, all-about-me culture.

This creates a fertile environment for the propagation of psychopathic & sociopathic behaviors among the obviously mentally unstable.

The answers to tragedies like this will never lie in any amount of gun-control laws current or planned, but rather in the core of our cultural values system.

We, as a society, should be ashamed of ourselves....not for failing to pile on more & more worthless gun-control laws, but for failing to establish the moral values and individual accountability necessary for a safe and healthy social network.

Gosh a ruddies the good old days when bigots beat, killed and lynched people every year. We taught people bigotry was wrong. And we started to enforce laws protecting people against those attacks and they diminished

I like guns and think they are worth it.

I believe that they kill more stupid people than smart/innocent, Thus advancing my favorite Darwinian theory.

believer;1343548 wrote:The paradigm shift in our culture away from God, family, and individual virtues like selflessness, forgiveness, giving, and integrity have been replaced by selfishness, narcissism, materialism, and immediate gratification. The breakdown of our core family culture has retarded individual coping skills in today's fast paced, all-about-me culture.

This creates a fertile environment for the propagation of psychopathic & sociopathic behaviors among the obviously mentally unstable.

The answers to tragedies like this will never lie in any amount of gun-control laws current or planned, but rather in the core of our cultural values system.

We, as a society, should be ashamed of ourselves....not for failing to pile on more & more worthless gun-control laws, but for failing to establish the moral values and individual accountability necessary for a safe and healthy social network.

This. I always thought my perspective of people just changed as I got older because I knew what was happening. But I can honestly say that even in my adult life, it seems like people in general are more snarky, unhappy and selfish. I do think our culture has and is changing. To blame guns is ignorance. Take the guns away and they will just use a different weapon (or an illegal gun).

Fix the problem. Not the choice of weapon.

WebFire;1343587 wrote:...

Fix the problem. Not the choice of weapon.

This can't be repeated enough.

believer;1343548 wrote:The paradigm shift in our culture away from God, family, and individual virtues like selflessness, forgiveness, giving, and integrity have been replaced by selfishness, narcissism, materialism, and immediate gratification. The breakdown of our core family culture has retarded individual coping skills in today's fast paced, all-about-me culture.

This creates a fertile environment for the propagation of psychopathic & sociopathic behaviors among the obviously mentally unstable.

The answers to tragedies like this will never lie in any amount of gun-control laws current or planned, but rather in the core of our cultural values system.

We, as a society, should be ashamed of ourselves....not for failing to pile on more & more worthless gun-control laws, but for failing to establish the moral values and individual accountability necessary for a safe and healthy social network.

Class dismissed. :thumbup: