"Today's headlines and history's judgement are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter."----Condoleeza Rice

from 2004:
http://www.meforum.org/meib/articles/0407_me2.htm


from Nov. 2011

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-11-13/news/fl-nncol-bush-arab-spring-nikpour-1113-20111113_1_iraqi-democracy-arab-spring-weapons-of-mass-destruction

It is pretty easy to focus on the miscalculations of the Bush administration....it took too long and cost too much etc etc....but the grand strategy of taken havens of terror and despotism and turning them into democracies may look better when viewed from a historical perspective. Nothing is easy and simple. Nothing always goes exactly as planned. Nobody/no generation ever had it perfect. What history does teach us is that it takes vigilance, perseverance and sacrifice. Maybe what we need to do instead of "blaming Bush" is to water the seeds he and his administration have sown.

The seeds will haunt us for a long time to come. The people that were oppressed by the puppets we propped up are now creating governments that hate us with every fiber of their souls. Afghanistan would side with Pakistan if we went to war with them. Iraq is now an Iranian puppet. We just couldn't mind our own business and decided to go empire building. Bush and Obama should be tried for war crimes, not celebrated.

Cleveland Buck;1082741 wrote:Bush and Obama should be tried for war crimes

Are you serious?

majorspark;1082747 wrote:Are you serious?

I was being dramatic. I have little regard for international law. They should be tried for crimes in this country though, and not just related to the wars either.

Cleveland Buck;1082741 wrote:ThThe people that were oppressed by the puppets we propped up are now creating governments that hate us with every fiber of their souls.

In Libya they cried and now in Syria they cry with every fiber of their souls to come save them.

majorspark;1082749 wrote:In Libya they cried and now in Syria they cry with every fiber of their souls to come save them.

The ones they show you on Fox and CNN do. Others resent our CIA there telling them how to setup their next puppet government.

Cleveland Buck;1082750 wrote:The ones they show you on Fox and CNN do. Others resent our CIA there telling them how to setup their next puppet government.

Actually I saw it on Al Jazeera. I actually like the site. There is some bias but thats everywhere.

I wouldn't expect you to agree with this.....I'm just putting it out there to give some of you guys a little education and perspective since you seem to be only getting yours from one source.

Here's an interesting sequel from the 60's war...far worse than today's actions....
http://www.americanambassadors.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Publications.article&articleid=196


Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying and call me a warmonger....even though that is what you call everyone who thinks that having an active and engaging foreign policy is appropriate and good.

HitsRus;1082755 wrote:I wouldn't expect you to agree with this.....I'm just putting it out there to give some of you guys a little education and perspective since you seem to be only getting yours from one source.

Here's an interesting sequel from the 60's war...far worse than today's actions....
http://www.americanambassadors.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Publications.article&articleid=196


Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying and call me a warmonger....even though that is what you call everyone who thinks that having an active and engaging foreign policy is appropriate and good.

One source? Coming from the guy who ate up everything Fox News ever told him about foreign policy? And I understand many more Americans died in Vietnam than the Middle East. You think that makes what we are doing today somehow superior. Good for you.

And there are many ways to have an engaging foreign policy. What we are doing isn't one of them. How engaging is to buy the dictator of a country and then shower the people of that country with drone missiles? How engaging are sanctions against third world countries? That isn't engaging. It is isolationist in the real meaning of the word.

I'm guessing that, in your support of all things Ron Paul, you would prefer a return to isolationist policies.

stlouiedipalma;1082778 wrote:I'm guessing that, in your support of all things Ron Paul, you would prefer a return to isolationist policies.

Glory Days;1082819 wrote: =

exactly!

So we want to give Bush credit for the Arab Spring. So do we give him credit when they elect or terrorist are taking control of the governments?

You call it isolationism, I call it patriotism. You guys fail to mention that Paul has made no mentions of cutting off from the world economically, cutting trade with other countries, or putting sanctions on other countries which is what we are doing now. People need to see what the rewards of freedom are and blowing up their lands and killing their people will not make them see that, it actually creates the opposite effect. So you guys convienently ignore the other half of the definition of Isolationism to make it sound like Paul will just let WW3 happen. He has never said the people responsible shouldn't have been punished. He voted to get those responsible. Also the longer you allow these wars to go on, the easier it is for the government to stay fat and waste money. It also allows the government to enact the Patriot Act and the NDAA, which just take more freedoms away from us. So these wars have actually made us less free and less secure. Which sounds a lot like the same propaganda used in 1930s Germany.

These wars have accomplished absolutely nothing. Ideas and perspectives cannot be defeated with guns and bullets. People have tried throughout history to crush Freedom and Liberty with their army and wars and it does not work. Terrorism will never go away, just like Murder will never go away.

How many more American soliders need to die and how much money do we need to spend before you will realize that this was a failure. What will success look like to you? What is your ideal end result that is never going to happen?

pmoney25;1082831 wrote: These wars have accomplished absolutely nothing. Ideas and perspectives cannot be defeated with guns and bullets. People have tried throughout history to crush Freedom and Liberty with their army and wars and it does not work. Terrorism will never go away, just like Murder will never go away.

A.) what freedoms and liberties has the US military crushed?
B.) so since we cant stop murders, we should disband police and stop trying to prevent murders etc?

It also allows the government to enact the Patriot Act and the NDAA, which just take more freedoms away from us. So these wars have actually made us less free and less secure.

A case of short memory...or in the case of the younger posters on here, no adult memory. It wasn't like we had troops marching all over the Arab world prior to 9/11. We were engaged in limited military police action ( enforcing the No-fly zone) over an increasingly non-compliant Sadaam Hussein who was in violation of the Gulf peace agreements.

AlQaida's attack ...the first attack on American soil since 1812...was a shock, and the result of our own complacency. The shock was far greater within the government, than the general public knew, as our leadership sought to reassure us. In truth, we knew too little about our attackers who had carried out a coordinated attack on us.( the CIA was somewhat 'let go' during the Clinton and early Bush years) The Bush Administration saw, that despite our military might and nuclear capabilities, that our back door was wide open. it did not know how many more punches Al Qaida could or would throw. Hence, in the days weeks and months following 9/11, the Bush administration placed securing the nation at the top of the priority list. They were determined (and rightfully so) that we not be attacked again.

People who think Iraq is a better place now versus then have not done their research...at all. The daily violence has escalated, the running water and electricity is sparce, and their overall life stinks.

No matter what the American press perpertuates, Iraq is now a shiethole...thanks to Bush et al and his "shock and awe".

I could post scores of links from the internet confirming what I just stated. The violence alone is sickening. And we continue to fly our planes over their sovereign country (against their wished I might add) to ensure the safety of the "taj mahal" (600 million dollars worth) military base/embassy that we had no business erecting.

As for Buck's comment on war criminality, far lesser war criminals have faced firing squads. Bush the 43rd will never set foot in places like Spain, where they would have him cuffed and incarcerated...and then put on trial. And this is a country that joined forces with us in Iraq.

"What's bad about living in Baghdad?"

......"Everything"


http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/now-life-iraq-government-war-people-life-11518922

Cleveland Buck;1082741 wrote:The seeds will haunt us for a long time to come. The people that were oppressed by the puppets we propped up are now creating governments that hate us with every fiber of their souls. Afghanistan would side with Pakistan if we went to war with them. Iraq is now an Iranian puppet. We just couldn't mind our own business and decided to go empire building. Bush and Obama should be tried for war crimes, not celebrated.

Sadly, this is true. The Arab spring could come to be a bad situation for the US depending on what groups take power in each of those countries. The US has created so many enemies in that area of the world, it's hard to determine whether or not they will assume power in some of these countries that we had propped dictators up in.

I do disagree with trying Obama and Bush for war crimes though. I can understand someone wanting to try Bush for war crimes for invading a sovereign Iraq, but I don't think I would agree with it.

majorspark;1082749 wrote:In Libya they cried and now in Syria they cry with every fiber of their souls to come save them.

They cry now, yet when the US does bring in the troops and the dictators are overthrown, then the people turn on the US. Screw them on that side of the world, they are bigger hypocrites and more two-faced than any other. Let them take care of and earn it on their own.

stlouiedipalma;1082778 wrote:I'm guessing that, in your support of all things Ron Paul, you would prefer a return to isolationist policies.

You are confused. Ron Paul doesn't want to implement isolationist policies. How is trading and engaging diplomatically with countries considered isolationist? People get so confused (brainwashed) and believe that if we don't spread our military might and make our military presence known across the globe that we are practicing isolationism. That is false.

dwccrew;1082942 wrote: I do disagree with trying Obama and Bush for war crimes though. I can understand someone wanting to try Bush for war crimes for invading a sovereign Iraq, but I don't think I would agree with it.

I said earlier that I was being dramatic about it. I have no desire to cede our sovereignty to some global court. Bush and Barack have perpetrated enough crimes domestically to be tried for those in U.S. courts though. And I could understand the Iraqi people wanting to try them in their courts.

dwccrew;1082942 wrote:The Arab spring could come to be a bad situation for the US depending on what groups take power in each of those countries. The US has created so many enemies in that area of the world, it's hard to determine whether or not they will assume power in some of these countries that we had propped dictators up in.

Eh....The United States made enemies in that area of the world the day Israel was recognized as a sovereign nation.

We could play nice in the sandbox with all the dictators, sheiks, al Qaeda, the Taliban, and the Muslim Brotherhood and STILL come out the Great Satan. It doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is we have a vested interest in Israel and the region's relatively plentiful and inexpensive oil. Nothing more, nothing less.

Regardless of which group of Sharia Law followers rise to the top, they'll still take our money while they kick us in the gonads.

All the more reason to tell American environmentalist nut jobs to shove it up their moronic asses and start getting serious about using ALL available domestic sources of energy at our disposal.

Footwedge;1082931 wrote:As for Buck's comment on war criminality, far lesser war criminals have faced firing squads. Bush the 43rd will never set foot in places like Spain, where they would have him cuffed and incarcerated...and then put on trial. And this is a country that joined forces with us in Iraq.

LOL. The Spanish would not have the balls to do shit. Maybe we should start putting out arrest warrants for Spanish authorites handling of Basque separatists over the years. The Spanish are so full of shit their eyeballs are brown. Why don't they GTFO of NATO. Better yet why don't we GTFO of NATO and let the Europussies find a way to pay for their own defense while continuing to maintain their social utopias.

majorspark;1083016 wrote:LOL. The Spanish would not have the balls to do ****. Maybe we should start putting out arrest warrants for Spanish authorites handling of Basque separatists over the years. The Spanish are so full of **** their eyeballs are brown. Why don't they GTFO of NATO. Better yet why don't we GTFO of NATO and let the Europussies find a way to pay for their own defense while continuing to maintain their social utopias.

How come you have 2 green stripes and I only have one? I've become a OC class warist.

Umm the Arab spring had nothing to do with the U.S.
It was all from the ground up, from a small vendor inTunisia that set himself on fire.
That then spread to the other countries like a wildfire.

The U.S usually has influence, but not on this one.

Footwedge;1082931 wrote:People who think Iraq is a better place now versus then have not done their research...at all. The daily violence has escalated, the running water and electricity is sparce, and their overall life stinks.

No matter what the American press perpertuates, Iraq is now a shiethole...thanks to Bush et al and his "shock and awe".

I could post scores of links from the internet confirming what I just stated. The violence alone is sickening. And we continue to fly our planes over their sovereign country (against their wished I might add) to ensure the safety of the "taj mahal" (600 million dollars worth) military base/embassy that we had no business erecting.

As for Buck's comment on war criminality, far lesser war criminals have faced firing squads. Bush the 43rd will never set foot in places like Spain, where they would have him cuffed and incarcerated...and then put on trial. And this is a country that joined forces with us in Iraq.

you do realize Iraq was a shit hole BEFORE we arrived right?

Glory Days;1083262 wrote:you do realize Iraq was a **** hole BEFORE we arrived right?

Yes. But it's a lot worse now than what it was in 2000. That's what happens when all your bridges, hospitals, water treatment plants, and other infrastructure are destroyed by war.

BTW...the Bush apologists regarding Iraq are now down to a puny 33% inspite of our militarily controlled media.