Cleveland Cavaliers 11-12 season thread

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robj55

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Feb 7, 2012 2:42 PM
Y-Town Steelhound;1078557 wrote:For the record I never said Kyrie was better or more talented than LeBron. I simply said that right now I would take Kyrie because he is going to give me more long term production being that he's younger. He also isn't a guy who isn't going to demand the ball to be effective and is easier to build a team around. This was never a question of "who's better"....that is an obvious answer.
All PG's demand the ball to be most effective
Feb 7, 2012 2:42pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:42 PM
Y-Town Steelhound;1078559 wrote:Not sure you can make that claim "without question". It's certainly a legitimate debate and as you said it's tough to compare players from different eras. Magic does a lot of things better than LeBron and LeBron does a lot of things better than Magic. I think you can definitely argue that LeBron is the most physically gifted player to ever play, but a lot of people are really athletic. It doesn't necessarily make them the best.
What did Magic do better than Lebron?
Feb 7, 2012 2:42pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:43 PM
sleeper;1078348 wrote:Lebron's only "bad" season with the Cavs was his rookie season. And his rookie numbers at season completion are better than Kyrie's right now. It'd be incredible if Kyrie turns out to be better than Lebron, but I don't see it, not even close.
I'm not saying Kyrie will be better than LeBron, because LeBron is the best player in the league...

However, during the same amount of games through their rookie season, Kyrie > LeBron stat wise. Especially FG%. Kyrie is shooting an unbelievable 50% fromt he field and 40% from 3.

We don't need Kyrie to be as great as LeBron though. LeBron has been in the league for around 8 seasons and has 2 Finals appearances with 0 rings while playing on some great teams.

Kyrie will be great in his own right, so building the team the right way will get us back to a title contender.
Feb 7, 2012 2:43pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:43 PM
Mulva;1078558 wrote:Right, because Cleveland fans have never completely overvalued their own players or made ridiculous claims about anything else.

I am a Cleveland fan. But as a group, they're (we're) completely biased and delusional. It's blind optimism.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize Cleveland elected Mulva as spokesperson for all Cleveland fans. I must have missed those elections. Please let me know when the next ones are. In the meantime here's a tip, generalizations are not the same as fact based points.
Feb 7, 2012 2:43pm
Commander of Awesome's avatar

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Feb 7, 2012 2:43 PM
LBJ might have been second in a random season. Certaintly not overall.
Feb 7, 2012 2:43pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:44 PM
robj55;1078560 wrote:All PG's demand the ball to be most effective
Yeah you're right, like that damn ball hog Rajon Rondo :rolleyes:. Read my post about generalizations.
Feb 7, 2012 2:44pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:46 PM
Mulva;1078558 wrote:Right, because "insert any teams" fans have never completely overvalued their own players or made ridiculous claims about anything else.

I am a "insert any team" fan. But as a group, they're (we're) completely biased and delusional. It's blind optimism.
This is true.
Feb 7, 2012 2:46pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:46 PM
Y-Town Steelhound;1078559 wrote: Magic does a lot of things better than LeBron
What are these lots of things? Please elaborate, I'm curious to see your response (not being sarcastic).
Feb 7, 2012 2:46pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:49 PM
I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people trying to compare Magic and LeBron weren't old enough to watch Magic dominate in his prime on a consistent basis.

Of course, most people are going to say LeBron is better, even though he's playing in a league gone soft that favors offense.

It's fun to debate, but there is no way you can say one player is better than the other.
Feb 7, 2012 2:49pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:51 PM
robj55;1078556 wrote:Championships are a team accomplishment, have you ever played a sport? Lebron is a better player than Magic Johnson, without question imo. Hard to compare eras but Lebron would eat Magic alive.
No, this is wrong. Nobody would eat Magic alive, he was an elite talent/player and a superior in mine (and anyone that doesn't have LBJs nut permanently on this chin).

So you want to say its a team accomplishment, the argument still holds. LBJ choked against the Celtics in Cleveland and put on a top 10 choke performance in the Finals last season. That was with the "superstar" Miami heat squad.

There isn't a good argument to say that LBJ is a top 3 player of all time.
Feb 7, 2012 2:51pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:51 PM
lhslep134;1078569 wrote:What are these lots of things? Please elaborate, I'm curious to see your response (not being sarcastic).
Did you forget the time Paul Pierce out peformed LBJ in game 7, or how about the time Lebron was a pussy to go to the hole against dwight in the ECF?

LMAO at anyone who says LBJ is better than Magic.
Feb 7, 2012 2:51pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:51 PM
Y-Town Steelhound;1078566 wrote:Yeah you're right, like that damn ball hog Rajon Rondo :rolleyes:. Read my post about generalizations.
He controls tempo and is a play maker. How does he do that? With the ball in his hands. Name me one PG who is effective without dominating the ball the majority of the time. That's what a pg's job is.
Feb 7, 2012 2:51pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:51 PM
robj55;1078561 wrote:What did Magic do better than Lebron?
Well for starters he certainly has a better record playing in the Finals. I also would say he's better than LeBron at passing (assist numbers confirm this) though LeBron is obviously great for being a wing. Versatility: Magic played center in a finals game...never seen LeBron move to the 5. Magic is certainly a better free throw shooter which certainly is an important statistic (particularly for this "closer argument), and also has a better career FG% though LBJ's career obviously isn't done yet. Their steal #s are comparable.

So as I said, Magic does things better and LeBron does things better. It's laughable to not say they aren't comparable.
Feb 7, 2012 2:51pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:52 PM
hoops23;1078572 wrote:I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people trying to compare Magic and LeBron weren't old enough to watch Magic dominate in his prime on a consistent basis.
Yeah that's why I asked Y-town. I didn't get to watch Magic play in his prime, so I have no basis for comparison. I refuse to let myself fall into the current sports-media trap of "the best of now is the best of all time" BS.
Feb 7, 2012 2:52pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:52 PM
robj55;1078561 wrote:What did Magic do better than Lebron?
Distribution (averaged double-digit assists) and shooting (higher field goal and free throw percentages). If you take career numbers, rebounds and steals are basically even (7.2/game for both for rebounds; 1.9 to 1.7 in favor of Magic for steals).
Feb 7, 2012 2:52pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:53 PM
robj55;1078561 wrote:What did Magic do better than Lebron?
Win titles.
Feb 7, 2012 2:53pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:53 PM
Ah I see I should've been more specific. What I meant that Kyrie doesn't need to be the primary scoring option to be effective. So far he's played like a guy that can get you 25 points if you need 25 points (which he has had to do given the talent on the current Cavs roster), or he can be a distributor. LeBron, as we've seen, is a guy that gets better stats when he's the primary option in the offense. With Kyrie you have more versatility in terms of who you can surround him with.
Feb 7, 2012 2:53pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:53 PM
like_that;1078575 wrote:Did you forget the time Paul Pierce out peformed LBJ in game 7, or how about the time Lebron was a **** to go to the hole against dwight in the ECF?

LMAO at anyone who says LBJ is better than Magic.
Well then why, in your opinion is Magic superior?
Feb 7, 2012 2:53pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:53 PM
like_that;1078575 wrote:Did you forget the time Paul Pierce out peformed LBJ in game 7, or how about the time Lebron was a **** to go to the hole against dwight in the ECF?

LMAO at anyone who says LBJ is better than Magic.
I wasn't saying Lebron was better, I was asking Y-town his thoughts since he got to see Magic play and I didn't. I need to start watching old re-runs of 1980s basketball games before I can really hop into this debate.
Feb 7, 2012 2:53pm
robj55's avatar

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Feb 7, 2012 2:54 PM
Commander of Awesome;1078582 wrote:Win titles.
He won them by himself? Didn't know the NBA was a one on one league, interesting.
Feb 7, 2012 2:54pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:54 PM
lhslep134;1078579 wrote:Yeah that's why I asked Y-town. I didn't get to watch Magic play in his prime, so I have no basis for comparison. I refuse to let myself fall into the current sports-media trap of "the best of now is the best of all time" BS.
I never got to watch Magic in person though I've seen old games and such. It's tough to compare players from different eras but I mean something like free throw percentage is something that is applicable in all eras.
Feb 7, 2012 2:54pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:54 PM
Y-Town Steelhound;1078583 wrote: With Kyrie you have more versatility in terms of who you can surround him with.
That also comes from the position differential between a wing and a PG, imo.
Feb 7, 2012 2:54pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:56 PM
Heretic;1078580 wrote:Distribution (averaged double-digit assists) and shooting (higher field goal and free throw percentages). If you take career numbers, rebounds and steals are basically even (7.2/game for both for rebounds; 1.9 to 1.7 in favor of Magic for steals).
Lebron gets almost 8 assists a game from the sf position, Magic was a pg and Lebron's vision is just as good as Magic's. Magic is not a better shooter than Lebron, that is a joke, I don't care what FG% says. Lebron is a better ball handler, scorer and defender by far. IMO he is just as versatile as well.
Feb 7, 2012 2:56pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:57 PM
lhslep134;1078591 wrote:That also comes from the position differential between a wing and a PG, imo.
That's true, which begs the question is would you rather have an elite wing or (potentially) elite point guard as the foundation of your team? Well I've seen what surrounding the elite wing does and it wasn't effective, so I take my chances with the elite point guard, especially considering the influx of PG talent in the NBA.
Feb 7, 2012 2:57pm
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Feb 7, 2012 2:58 PM
robj55;1078592 wrote:Lebron gets almost 8 assists a game from the sf position, Magic was a pg and Lebron's vision is just as good as Magic's. Magic is not a better shooter than Lebron, that is a joke, I don't care what FG% says. Lebron is a better ball handler, scorer and defender by far. IMO he is just as versatile as well.
Ah, stats don't matter...just a fan's love of one player. Got you.
Feb 7, 2012 2:58pm