Bloody Toothbrush;1275383 wrote:oh well, back to football talk......maybe we could flip the subject back to Smithville for awhile, this Waynedale debate is at swords points.

So......Hillsdale at Smithville (the most interesting WCAL game).......Go!

MOUNTAINBEAR;1275390 wrote:traveled 4 hundred miles to watch waynedale/smithville game. ARE YOU KIDDING ME! That is easily the worst waynedale team I have ever seen. the head ball coach has issues. He has lost this team, easily lost the confidence of parents and players alike, and most that I have spoken to in the community are of the same opinion. got to see Norwayne champ game and Ice is right. The rest of the league especially Waynedale Smithville Dalton better take notice. there is a changing of the gaurd in football and Norwayne and Hillsdale are leading the way. From what I wittnessed Zuercher or Besancon are the answer.

was_that_it;1275419 wrote:So I have read alot about the coaching at Waynedale....I don't like placing blame on coaches....they put in alot of time and they care about the kids. All of them, even the coach Dennis's of the world.
I will say this, what is the difference now between county schools? Did Hillsdale for example not have talented athletes all those years of terrible football? Did they not have big boys or tough nosed kids or speedsters. I argue that Hillsdale did, each and every year. They had the "talent" to compete, but it wasn't on the team or didn't buy into the program or didn't work hard in the offseason. A change of culture has Hillsdale where it is and it is because of the pee-wee program and the coaching staff. They may not always be in the top tier of the leauge, but a head coach, and his staff, worth a bent nickle will have the kids competative, even if the "talent" isn't there. IMHO

eyes r burning;1275489 wrote:Is wcalfan conducting a get tough parent meeting tonight in the district? he is like a chuch mouse tonight, must be getting things striaghten out.

BAD_NEWS_BEAR;1275592 wrote:I’ve just been a casual observer of this thread, but after reading all the posts about Coach Z, I just had to jump in. He coached one of my sons for 4 long years. Although my son started as a sophomore and was a 3 year letter winner, he never respected Coach Z. I have no doubt that Coach Z has football knowledge, he just doesn’t know how to manage or know how to build a team. Every year he picks 2 or 3 kids to be his superstars, treats them special, and tears down the team because of it. The kids aren’t stupid. They know that if Johnny superstar makes a mistake on the field Coach Z pats him on the head and says you’ll do better next time, but if you’re not one of his picks and you make the same mistake, you get ripped on the sideline in front of your friends and family and probably get benched. That’s the single biggest problem that I’ve seen since he’s been head coach. Most of the kids play scared. They second guess their actions on the field for fear of being yanked if they make a mistake. That split second pause, instead of just reacting is all it takes to miss a play. It wouldn’t be that way if he ripped all the kids the same or none of the kids, but making that difference builds a dissention among the players and deteriorates the “team”.

A few examples of how it treats players special:

In 2008 the Bears went to the playoffs against Crestview with one of the most talented teams in recent history. He had a player with a blown ACL who somehow got cleared to play the last 6 games of the season with a brace and no ACL. There’s no way that player was better than some other kid on the bench with 2 good legs. Coach Z padded this kids stats and said he got 159 tackles in 6 games and got him his All Ohio and picture on the wall at the high school. Waynedale got beat 42 – 14 in that game against Crestview and a lot of plays blew past that player. Coach Z didn’t make the right decision for the team.

In 2010 Coach Z somehow got an All Ohio honorable mention for one of the worst offensive lineman on the team. His picture is on the wall too. He got a mercy invitation to play at Mount Union and lasted 1 or 2 months. The other players didn't appreciate what coach Z did. There were other players who deserved it more.

This year one of his stars gets arrested and he held him out of the scrimmages and the first game against Tusky Valley. If you look at the rules, he should have been held out for 2 games. Scrimmages aren’t games and therefore not real punishment. If that would have been an inconsequential player, he’d probably still be sitting on the sidelines.

Finally, three years ago Coach Z decided that B. Stanley was the QB of the future no matter how bad he played at that position. He’s a hell of an athlete, just not a QB as demonstrated by the fact he’s been replaced in his senior year. Coach Z had another QB (C. Constable) who wasn’t as athletic and not a huge run threat, but a solid QB with an accurate arm and a good decision maker. He never got a chance and was moved to a wide out position his sophmore year. If Constable had been QB last year and Stanley moved to the RB position, they could have possibly won more than 6 games. Could have possibly beat Ridgewood and challenged Smithville. No defense can hold forever without some offensive help. Both sides of the ball needs momentum from the other.

Bottom line, Coach Z doesn’t build teams, he destroys them by setting certain players on pedestals and treating everyone else as if they are unimportant, not worthy of his consideration. He tolerates them only because he needs 11 players. The same thing that happened a couple of years ago is happening with the freshmen now. Isn’t it odd that another coach's son is going to be the QB? I don’t have any kids in school anymore…….thank God. The drama behind Waynedale football since Z has been coach sucks the life out of you. Sorry wcalfan, but the the truth sometimes hurts. Good luck to the bears anyway, there's always hope.

BAD_NEWS_BEAR;1275592 wrote:I’ve just been a casual observer of this thread, but after reading all the posts about Coach Z, I just had to jump in. He coached one of my sons for 4 long years. Although my son started as a sophomore and was a 3 year letter winner, he never respected Coach Z. I have no doubt that Coach Z has football knowledge, he just doesn’t know how to manage or know how to build a team. Every year he picks 2 or 3 kids to be his superstars, treats them special, and tears down the team because of it. The kids aren’t stupid. They know that if Johnny superstar makes a mistake on the field Coach Z pats him on the head and says you’ll do better next time, but if you’re not one of his picks and you make the same mistake, you get ripped on the sideline in front of your friends and family and probably get benched. That’s the single biggest problem that I’ve seen since he’s been head coach. Most of the kids play scared. They second guess their actions on the field for fear of being yanked if they make a mistake. That split second pause, instead of just reacting is all it takes to miss a play. It wouldn’t be that way if he ripped all the kids the same or none of the kids, but making that difference builds a dissention among the players and deteriorates the “team”.

A few examples of how it treats players special:

In 2008 the Bears went to the playoffs against Crestview with one of the most talented teams in recent history. He had a player with a blown ACL who somehow got cleared to play the last 6 games of the season with a brace and no ACL. There’s no way that player was better than some other kid on the bench with 2 good legs. Coach Z padded this kids stats and said he got 159 tackles in 6 games and got him his All Ohio and picture on the wall at the high school. Waynedale got beat 42 – 14 in that game against Crestview and a lot of plays blew past that player. Coach Z didn’t make the right decision for the team.

In 2010 Coach Z somehow got an All Ohio honorable mention for one of the worst offensive lineman on the team. His picture is on the wall too. He got a mercy invitation to play at Mount Union and lasted 1 or 2 months. The other players didn't appreciate what coach Z did. There were other players who deserved it more.

This year one of his stars gets arrested and he held him out of the scrimmages and the first game against Tusky Valley. If you look at the rules, he should have been held out for 2 games. Scrimmages aren’t games and therefore not real punishment. If that would have been an inconsequential player, he’d probably still be sitting on the sidelines.

Finally, three years ago Coach Z decided that B. Stanley was the QB of the future no matter how bad he played at that position. He’s a hell of an athlete, just not a QB as demonstrated by the fact he’s been replaced in his senior year. Coach Z had another QB (C. Constable) who wasn’t as athletic and not a huge run threat, but a solid QB with an accurate arm and a good decision maker. He never got a chance and was moved to a wide out position his sophmore year. If Constable had been QB last year and Stanley moved to the RB position, they could have possibly won more than 6 games. Could have possibly beat Ridgewood and challenged Smithville. No defense can hold forever without some offensive help. Both sides of the ball needs momentum from the other.

Bottom line, Coach Z doesn’t build teams, he destroys them by setting certain players on pedestals and treating everyone else as if they are unimportant, not worthy of his consideration. He tolerates them only because he needs 11 players. The same thing that happened a couple of years ago is happening with the freshmen now. Isn’t it odd that another coach's son is going to be the QB? I don’t have any kids in school anymore…….thank God. The drama behind Waynedale football since Z has been coach sucks the life out of you. Sorry wcalfan, but the the truth sometimes hurts. Good luck to the bears anyway, there's always hope.

wcalfan;1275599 wrote:Believe me it is way too late for that type of meeting in our district. With the number of current/former parents that are now given a voice on this thing and have spewed their vomit on here, it is quite obvious what the problem is with our kids.

I am just excited about the fact that you and I get to talk on Friday. Don't forget 80's alum...7:00 at the picnic tables.

ghostrider;1275604 wrote:Best post i have seen yet...with legitimate facts. Now give more.. i know you have more



Former parents spewing vomit...lol. the problem is clearly the coach. You have present parents, former parents, fans, alumni...fans from 400 miles away, fence huggers.....but its not the coach. Its the soft kids and the parents, right AD...OR IS IT DAD

wcalfan;1275603 wrote:I will continue to say this on here, if parents are willing to voice their opinions about a coach/program out in public or on forums, I can guarantee you they are saying the same things in their homes so their kids can hear it. How in the heck are coaches ever supposed to be successful when that crap is going on in our district?

Jmar25;1275695 wrote:Well... I'm not sure what else to say. I'm not there everyday and I haven't been to any of the games... Just scrimmages...

I think the information I've gathered from some folks on here shocks me. I can only say a few things then I'll be done with the Waynedale coaching "problem". It's not... it's an ATTITUDE PROBLEM.

I remember when this same talk spread about Seder after the 99 year.
Chippewa just beat Waynedale in 99 and it was instantly a coaching problem. 2000, 4-6... coaching problem... (never mind that the O line had one returning member and had two freshman that rotated in with some juniors) 2001, 1-9....coaching problem... (PLAY THE JV's echoed throughout the crowd on fridays despite a few sophomores at QB, WR, and O-line. When was the last time a JV team won against a varsity squad in the WCAL?) 2002, 3-7... coaching problem (These kids should be winning... forget that they competed in every game including scoring the most points all year on Smithville's runner-up team) 2003, 10-2... Not a coaching problem... how could he screw up with those kids... 2004, 5-5 Coaching problem... (Jobe Stutzman and Tim Zurcher. ONLY RETURNING KIDS THAT SNIFFED THE FIELD THE YEAR BEFORE)

I see the same thing with Z right now... it's sad...

The other thing that shocks me and really makes me sad as an alumni of the school and of this football team is the attitude of the kids and what I presume are some of the parents as well. I can tell you right now... This attitude doesn't exist on the wrestling team. Many of those kids are on this team. I guess Louie Stanley is just more of a "players" coach... It's sad that I had to use that term FOR HIGH SCHOOL KIDS! Didn't realize the NFL Diva syndrome had trickled down into college and is now into the H.S.'s

I had coaches that I didn't like but I sure as hell respected them. That was just the way I was brought up. If I didn't like them... I kept my mouth shut, said yes sir, did what they asked, and did what they asked because I was smart enough to know that he knew more than I did even if I didn't agree with him. I know I wasn't the only one... I know that many before have done the same thing... I would be willing to bet that those were the teams that had winning seasons, won the county, made the playoffs, won playoff games....

The other things... like favoritism... Ask any coach worth a grain of salt if they show favoritism... They will tell you damn right they do. You show it to the kids that do what is asked of them, prove to be leaders, have good behaviors, and show respect TO ALL MEMBERS OF THE TEAM, COACHES INCLUDED. Everyone shows favoritism. You can't not show some favoritism. It's human nature. What you don't do is slight kids. According some of you on here... Coach Z slights kids.... I DOUBT IT! You reap what you sow... that's life. Get over it.

Waynedale football the past couple years comes down to the simple fact that there is not enough in the trenches. When was the last time Waynedale had a line? There have been some quality o-linemen but not more than one or two at a time (You need 3 quality guys to have success and 4 to have a chance at doing something special) The last quality set of linemen were probably the lines in front of Nofsinger, Hendrix before that, Massaro/Persinger before that, Z, Kikume, Thompson... and so on...

So lets try and be civil and think about this with an unbiased thought process... Does Z deserve some of the blame... YES! Do the kids deserve some of the blame... YES!

Players play the game... They control the action, execution, and are the only ones with ability to overcome the challenges that may occur throughout a game.

Coaches coach. They put the guys into a position to succeed. They try to overcome the challenges that occur before the game starts and more importantly... they try and make boys into men and teach them more than just the game. They help them EARN the qualities that make them into outstanding citizens.

bobcat14;1275763 wrote:This is High School football right???????

OQB;1275819 wrote:NO!

This is Wayne County Football where schools recruit their talent, the players are paid, and coaches get fired for having a losing season. :rolleyes:

855pride;1275851 wrote:in keith schrocks case......a county championship season :huh:

BAD_NEWS_BEAR;1275592 wrote:I’ve just been a casual observer of this thread, but after reading all the posts about Coach Z, I just had to jump in. He coached one of my sons for 4 long years. Although my son started as a sophomore and was a 3 year letter winner, he never respected Coach Z. I have no doubt that Coach Z has football knowledge, he just doesn’t know how to manage or know how to build a team. Every year he picks 2 or 3 kids to be his superstars, treats them special, and tears down the team because of it. The kids aren’t stupid. They know that if Johnny superstar makes a mistake on the field Coach Z pats him on the head and says you’ll do better next time, but if you’re not one of his picks and you make the same mistake, you get ripped on the sideline in front of your friends and family and probably get benched. That’s the single biggest problem that I’ve seen since he’s been head coach. Most of the kids play scared. They second guess their actions on the field for fear of being yanked if they make a mistake. That split second pause, instead of just reacting is all it takes to miss a play. It wouldn’t be that way if he ripped all the kids the same or none of the kids, but making that difference builds a dissention among the players and deteriorates the “team”.

A few examples of how it treats players special:

In 2008 the Bears went to the playoffs against Crestview with one of the most talented teams in recent history. He had a player with a blown ACL who somehow got cleared to play the last 6 games of the season with a brace and no ACL. There’s no way that player was better than some other kid on the bench with 2 good legs. Coach Z padded this kids stats and said he got 159 tackles in 6 games and got him his All Ohio and picture on the wall at the high school. Waynedale got beat 42 – 14 in that game against Crestview and a lot of plays blew past that player. Coach Z didn’t make the right decision for the team.

In 2010 Coach Z somehow got an All Ohio honorable mention for one of the worst offensive lineman on the team. His picture is on the wall too. He got a mercy invitation to play at Mount Union and lasted 1 or 2 months. The other players didn't appreciate what coach Z did. There were other players who deserved it more.

This year one of his stars gets arrested and he held him out of the scrimmages and the first game against Tusky Valley. If you look at the rules, he should have been held out for 2 games. Scrimmages aren’t games and therefore not real punishment. If that would have been an inconsequential player, he’d probably still be sitting on the sidelines.

Finally, three years ago Coach Z decided that B. Stanley was the QB of the future no matter how bad he played at that position. He’s a hell of an athlete, just not a QB as demonstrated by the fact he’s been replaced in his senior year. Coach Z had another QB (C. Constable) who wasn’t as athletic and not a huge run threat, but a solid QB with an accurate arm and a good decision maker. He never got a chance and was moved to a wide out position his sophmore year. If Constable had been QB last year and Stanley moved to the RB position, they could have possibly won more than 6 games. Could have possibly beat Ridgewood and challenged Smithville. No defense can hold forever without some offensive help. Both sides of the ball needs momentum from the other.

Bottom line, Coach Z doesn’t build teams, he destroys them by setting certain players on pedestals and treating everyone else as if they are unimportant, not worthy of his consideration. He tolerates them only because he needs 11 players. The same thing that happened a couple of years ago is happening with the freshmen now. Isn’t it odd that another coach's son is going to be the QB? I don’t have any kids in school anymore…….thank God. The drama behind Waynedale football since Z has been coach sucks the life out of you. Sorry wcalfan, but the the truth sometimes hurts. Good luck to the bears anyway, there's always hope.