Who does everyone think will win them?

AL Cy Young- Verlander
AL MVP- Verlander
AL ROY- Nova
AL MOY- Madden

NL Cy Young- Kershaw
NL MVP- Kemp
NL ROY- Freeman
NL MOY- Gibson

AL CYA - Verlander
AL MVP - Miguel Cabrera (I have been harping Grandyman since June also)
AL ROY - Jeremy Hellickson
AL MOY - Madden

NL CYA - Kershaw
NL MVP - Kemp
NL ROY - Freeman (but Kimbrel is gonna win)
NL MOY - Gibson

I just dont think a guy who plays only 30-35 games should get the MVP.

thavoice;915823 wrote:I just dont think a guy who plays only 30-35 games should get the MVP.

Without him, they're a middle of the division team. If you go by what the award is called, no one is more valuable.

queencitybuckeye;915830 wrote:Without him, they're a middle of the division team. If you go by what the award is called, no one is more valuable.

Bullshit. How many games did they win in September, when Cabrera took the fuck off? How many did Verlander win?

They won like 12 in a row at one point, he pitched in TWO of those games. He is undoubtedly the best pitcher in the AL this year...but he is not the MVP. I mean, with that argument, Kershaw should be the MVP. They only win like 40 games without him.

Kershaw and Verlander are easily the Cy Young winners (both led the league in wins, ERA, and strikeouts).

Gibson should be the NL MOY, with Roenicke getting some deserved votes as well. I'll go with Madden over Leyland in the AL because of the late-season comeback and payroll differential.

Kemp is the obvious NL MVP, and I'll take Miggy in the AL because his OPS is just so much higher than Granderson's.

The AL has 3 really good ROY candidates in Nova, Hellickson, and Hosmer. I'll take Hosmer just because nobody has yet. Kimbrel in the NL.

For some reason it double posted and I didn't notice until now. Boy does it sour my mood when that happens.

I would agree with Hosmer, but I also believe Verlander is the AL MVP.

He is the most valuable player to his team in the AL.

royal_k;916115 wrote:I would agree with Hosmer, but I also believe Verlander is the AL MVP.

He is the most valuable player to his team in the AL.

24 wins out of there 96 isn't the most valuable.

AL Cy Young - Justin Verlander, Detroit Tigers, 24-5, 2.40 ERA, 250 K, 4 complete games, 2 shutouts, no-hitter
NL Cy Young - Clayton Kershaw, Los Angeles Dodgers, 21-5, 2.28 ERA, 248 K, 5 complete games, 2 shutouts

AL MVP - Jose Bautista, Toronto Blue Jays, .302 average, 43 HR, 103 RBI, 105 runs, .608 slugging, 1.056 OPS
NL MVP - Matt Kemp, Los Angeles Dodgers, .324 average, 39 HR, 126 RBI, 115 runs, 40 SB, .586 slugging, .986 OPS

AL Manager - Joe Maddon, Tampa Bay Rays, 91-71, overcame nine-game deficit in Wild Card standings in September
NL Manager - Kirk Gibson, Arizona Diamondbacks, 94-68, NL West division champions, 29 game turn-around from 2010

Crimson streak;916196 wrote:24 wins out of there 96 isn't the most valuable.

If you took him off the team or took Miggy off the team, which team would be better?

royal_k;918053 wrote:If you took him off the team or took Miggy off the team, which team would be better?

My point is, the guy had 24 wins. Fister came over and had like 8. Scherzer and his horrible ERA had 15. Hell even Rick Porcello (14) and Brad "I suck at Pitching" Penny had double digit wins with 11. They were a VERY good team, who were NOT carried by 1 guy. Because that is the case, I cant justify a pitcher winning it over Cabrera and the year he put together. He was at like .310 80 RBI and 22 HR. Then the last month when they didnt lose he took off and he ended up at .343, 107 RBI and 30 HR or something.

Laley23;918074 wrote:My point is, the guy had 24 wins. Fister came over and had like 8. Scherzer and his horrible ERA had 15. Hell even Rick Porcello (14) and Brad "I suck at Pitching" Penny had double digit wins with 11. They were a VERY good team, who were NOT carried by 1 guy. Because that is the case, I cant justify a pitcher winning it over Cabrera and the year he put together. He was at like .310 80 RBI and 22 HR. Then the last month when they didnt lose he took off and he ended up at .343, 107 RBI and 30 HR or something.

And this further backs up my point. Their line up scored a lot of runs. Thus, all the wins by pitchers with very high ERAs. Outside of Verlander and Fister, their staff is very mediocre. Verlander led the league in wins, era, so, whip, innings, and winning %. There really isn't another pitcher close to him in the AL. The same can't be said for Miggy, as far as position players go.

The issue really is should pitchers be included in the MVP award. They have their award, the Cy Young, that only pitchers can win.

The Cy Young goes to the best, most valuable pitcher in the league.

It can be seen as splitting hairs that is for sure. I would say unless there really isnt a position player who stood out then maybe an argument can be made.


I still think that pitchers should be left out of the MVP discussion. The MVP on my team is a guy who plays damned near every day, puts up big numbers and is a constant threat on that field every single day.

thavoice;918087 wrote:The issue really is should pitchers be included in the MVP award. They have their award, the Cy Young, that only pitchers can win.

The Cy Young goes to the best, most valuable pitcher in the league.

It can be seen as splitting hairs that is for sure. I would say unless there really isnt a position player who stood out then maybe an argument can be made.


I still think that pitchers should be left out of the MVP discussion. The MVP on my team is a guy who plays damned near every day, puts up big numbers and is a constant threat on that field every single day.

I agree with everything you say. But, that's not the way it is. IMO Verlander was the most valuable and best player in the AL this year, if not all of baseball.

Verlander was the best pitcher in baseball.

That really should be no doubt in anyone's mind.

As far as the best player? Maybe for the 34 days or however many starts he gets he was the best player but I think an MVP is someone who is feared every day there is a game played.

A great position player, a stud in the middle of a lineup, is what a team is built around each day. A stud pitcher you can build a staff around, but Verlander or a top pitcher doesnt on a daily basis make the other players around him play better. A great hitter puts up his numbers, serves as protection to whomever is hitting before him, and also sets up the guy behind him to be able to drive him in.

It really is a difference in philosophy that is all this is. both sides think they are right, both sides have valid and poignant points to the argument, and really neither side is wrong.

Just is a good topic for a healthy debate.

royal_k;918081 wrote:And this further backs up my point. Their line up scored a lot of runs. Thus, all the wins by pitchers with very high ERAs. Outside of Verlander and Fister, their staff is very mediocre. Verlander led the league in wins, era, so, whip, innings, and winning %. There really isn't another pitcher close to him in the AL. The same can't be said for Miggy, as far as position players go.

Just playing devils advocate (though I dont think Verlander is MVP, I do agree with your thought process). But take Verlanders amazingness out and you are left with a 3.5 ERA pitcher. This means the line-up (Cabrera) has to produce the way they did. Take out Cabrera and you are left with 1 less run a game, which means Verlanders has to do what he did.

I just dont think you can have one without the other. I think we are getting hung up on 24 wins, which is incredible. But it was 25.2% of the teams wins. Kershaw had just as good of numbers if not better across the board as Verlander on a shitty team and put up 21 wins, or 25.6% of his teams wins. NO ONE is talking about Kershaw for MVP, yet it looks like Kemp, his teammate, might be the frontrunner....Makes no sense when the same thing is going on in Detroit.

Good points Layley. The same CAN be said for Kershaw. FWIW, I believe both Cabrera and Kemp win MVPs.

No chance Verlander deserves the MVP award.

A pitcher shouldnt win the MVP unless he has a ridiculous amount of wins and an ERA under 2.5.

1. Granderson
2. Cabrera
3. Bautista
4. Ellsbury
5. Gonzalez
6. Cano
7. Verlander
8. Young
9. Teixeira
10. Martinez

Rotinaj;918140 wrote:A pitcher shouldnt win the MVP unless he has a ridiculous amount of wins and an ERA under 2.5.

And 8 other worthy candidates didn't have great years.

1. Braun
2. Kemp
3. Fielder
4. Upton
5. Howard

Verlander had 24 wins. The next guy in their rotation had 15 so there is a difference of 9 wins. The next dude would be the ace if Verlander was not there so we are looking at 9 wins PLUS whatever the difference would have been between whomever started in the 5th spot this season compared to who would have to replace him.

I am thinking that probably the difference between the current 5 spot and new 5 spot would be a few wins so maybe if Verlander wasnt there maybe we are looking at 11-12 wins and not 24 wins.

That is just another way to look at it if all other things are equal of course with how valuable a pitcher is for wins to the team.

example

1st in rotation= 20 wins
2nd= 13
3rd= 11
4th= 10
5th=8

take out the first guy and bump everyone up. There is an initial difference of 7 wins. the 5th slot garnered 8 wins so what would the possible replacement get in wins? 5? 7+3 is 10 wins difference.


Now...I dont know the tigers rotation. You cannot look just wins but the pitching slot in the rotation. 1-4 usually get the regular starts and the 5th one sometimes gets skipped over. There are injuries so that is why you have to look at the slot in the rotation and not really the total win totals.

Anyone understanding what I am saying or is this idea completely fubar?

Rotinaj;918140 wrote:A pitcher shouldnt win the MVP unless he has a ridiculous amount of wins and an ERA under 2.5.

I don't think he's the MVP, but wouldn't Verlander meet that set of criteria?