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thedemoralizer7
Posts: 245
Jul 27, 2011 5:19pm
ok all them red rider fans has everyone going? lets be more reasonable and have to similar conferences be compared. What are everyones opinions? what conference is tougher? better? or has more tradition?
1_beast
Posts: 5,642
Jul 27, 2011 5:22pm
LOL....I was tempted to do this exact same post...but I have refrained from posting!!! Just reading.....
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thedemoralizer7
Posts: 245
Jul 27, 2011 5:23pm
just in case everyone doesnt know all the pac teams they are tuslaw, indian valley, CVCA, Triway, Tusky Valley, manchester, timken, and Fairless
BRF
Posts: 8,748
Jul 27, 2011 5:51pm
thedemoralizer7;843579 wrote:ok all them red rider fans has everyone going?
"All them red rider fans"? Not so. If you notice, the stalwarts believe in "play the game", then we will see. The Red Rider stalwarts respect their opponents. So 1_beast is going to just "read"! Ha ha! Fat chance on that!
I like the thread....oh wait...BRF likes the thread......and he voted!
Edit: and BRF is just talking football here, just to clarify.
M
madman11
Posts: 293
Jul 27, 2011 8:30pm
Hands down....WCAL
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thedemoralizer7
Posts: 245
Jul 27, 2011 9:27pm
where are all them PAC people at?
1_beast
Posts: 5,642
Jul 27, 2011 10:02pm
just reading "grasshopper" (as myagi-son would say)...BRF;843604 wrote:"All them red rider fans"? Not so. If you notice, the stalwarts believe in "play the game", then we will see. The Red Rider stalwarts respect their opponents. So 1_beast is going to just "read"! Ha ha! Fat chance on that!
I like the thread....oh wait...BRF likes the thread......and he voted!
Edit: and BRF is just talking football here, just to clarify.
however when i return from night fishing.....after a few "gatorades".....i may have something to say, my friend!
THE4RINGZ
Posts: 16,816
Jul 27, 2011 10:11pm
As the second most knowledgable person on this site relating to these two leagues, here is my analysis team by team.
8. Fairless. Coaching challenges in this program have kept them at a level where Fairless v. Chippewa would be a barn burner.
7. Timken. Could be a dangerous team in the WCAL. Very unsound fundamentally, but let one of their burners get the ball in open space and their ain't a kid in Wayne County that can catch them.
6. Indian Valley. The program is rebuilding and some good things are happening in Midvale. Probably the best match style wise for the WCAL.
5. Tuslaw. Has had a couple of down years recently, but the numbers in the program remain high. Probably just a matter of time until they blossom again and look out when they do.
4. Tusky Valley. Probably another good match up for WCAL teams. Hard nosed kids who just won't quit. A lot like Dalton. Young QB will hit his stride this year and it could be Katie bar the door. Probably the second best QB in this league. They are making the transition from a run first team to a passing team, and could present some challenges for WCAL defenses.
3. CVCA. With Utley being gone, will they pass the ball more than three times a game this season. Big, fast kids, great attitude, need a little more offense and they could be fun to watch.
2. Triway. They have come into their own lately. New coach has the kids believing in winning. On O they will beat you with those short passes that go for 40 yards. You need some LB's who can recognize and cover the pass very well to beat them. On D they shut down the run very well, but are suspect to the deep pass play.
1. Manchester. Absolutley would destroy the WCAL. Nice balance on O of run and pass. Tons of talent. On D that LB stack they run (and have run for years) is unstoppable. And if you play in their bandbox stadium take your Haz Mat suit, some firewood, and don't mind the on field officials, they are the coaches friends and you will not win there.
8. Fairless. Coaching challenges in this program have kept them at a level where Fairless v. Chippewa would be a barn burner.
7. Timken. Could be a dangerous team in the WCAL. Very unsound fundamentally, but let one of their burners get the ball in open space and their ain't a kid in Wayne County that can catch them.
6. Indian Valley. The program is rebuilding and some good things are happening in Midvale. Probably the best match style wise for the WCAL.
5. Tuslaw. Has had a couple of down years recently, but the numbers in the program remain high. Probably just a matter of time until they blossom again and look out when they do.
4. Tusky Valley. Probably another good match up for WCAL teams. Hard nosed kids who just won't quit. A lot like Dalton. Young QB will hit his stride this year and it could be Katie bar the door. Probably the second best QB in this league. They are making the transition from a run first team to a passing team, and could present some challenges for WCAL defenses.
3. CVCA. With Utley being gone, will they pass the ball more than three times a game this season. Big, fast kids, great attitude, need a little more offense and they could be fun to watch.
2. Triway. They have come into their own lately. New coach has the kids believing in winning. On O they will beat you with those short passes that go for 40 yards. You need some LB's who can recognize and cover the pass very well to beat them. On D they shut down the run very well, but are suspect to the deep pass play.
1. Manchester. Absolutley would destroy the WCAL. Nice balance on O of run and pass. Tons of talent. On D that LB stack they run (and have run for years) is unstoppable. And if you play in their bandbox stadium take your Haz Mat suit, some firewood, and don't mind the on field officials, they are the coaches friends and you will not win there.
Mr Miyagi
Posts: 1,211
Jul 27, 2011 10:13pm
1_beast;843875 wrote:just reading "grasshopper" (as myagi-son would say)...
however when i return from night fishing.....after a few "gatorades".....i may have something to say, my friend!
Miyagi thinks that any OCC or Red Rider freshmen could catch more fish than anyone from the WCAL !
sounds like a new thread to Miyagi, what say you Beast ?
riders1
Posts: 2,275
Jul 27, 2011 10:19pm
See where Ryan Travis a Tuslaw grad signed with the Seahawks. He had at least 10 catches in every game this season.
http://www.cantonrep.com/college/x1314053028/Two-area-tight-ends-Travis-Miller-sign-with-NFL-teams
Pitman will have a few words to say on this thread.
http://www.cantonrep.com/college/x1314053028/Two-area-tight-ends-Travis-Miller-sign-with-NFL-teams
Pitman will have a few words to say on this thread.
BRF
Posts: 8,748
Jul 27, 2011 10:24pm
1_beast;843875 wrote:...i may have something to say, my friend!
And so I am right!
What you fishing for tonight? Catfish, blue gill, frog gigging? Hope you got a basketful whatever it is.
Red Rum
Posts: 1,006
Jul 28, 2011 12:31am
Now this is interesting, PAC8 vs WCAL, at least its apples to apples...IMO
At first glance I was giving an edge to the PAC but after a little research, I'm more inclined to think the balance shifts from year to year. Of the 42 games I've found that have been played between the 2 conferences since 2005, each has won 21 times.
Most years seem pretty close, in 2010 the PAC went 4-3, in 2009 the WCAL went 4-3.
Other years, its not so close, PAC goes 6-1 in 2008. In 2005 WCAL goes 5-1.
Rating the individual teams, Manchester is probably the strongest. I don't think they are anything close to unstoppable though as Smithville hung 50 on their defense in 2005 or 2006. I actually think Hillsdale would have beaten them last year. The Falcons will probably never get credit for how tough they were in 2010.
As far as my reseach goes, I was multi tasking at the time (listening to my wife complain--she never shuts up) so maybe Pitman or some other numbers guy should check the record. I have been known to miss a few numbers. I also don't know how long the present version of the PAC has been intact. WCAL hasn't changed since late 60's or early 70's. That could also change the numbers.
At first glance I was giving an edge to the PAC but after a little research, I'm more inclined to think the balance shifts from year to year. Of the 42 games I've found that have been played between the 2 conferences since 2005, each has won 21 times.
Most years seem pretty close, in 2010 the PAC went 4-3, in 2009 the WCAL went 4-3.
Other years, its not so close, PAC goes 6-1 in 2008. In 2005 WCAL goes 5-1.
Rating the individual teams, Manchester is probably the strongest. I don't think they are anything close to unstoppable though as Smithville hung 50 on their defense in 2005 or 2006. I actually think Hillsdale would have beaten them last year. The Falcons will probably never get credit for how tough they were in 2010.
As far as my reseach goes, I was multi tasking at the time (listening to my wife complain--she never shuts up) so maybe Pitman or some other numbers guy should check the record. I have been known to miss a few numbers. I also don't know how long the present version of the PAC has been intact. WCAL hasn't changed since late 60's or early 70's. That could also change the numbers.
1_beast
Posts: 5,642
Jul 28, 2011 4:14am
back from fishin...lol all I can say is 4ringz is a wanna be analyst.....!!!! 4 ringz...step away from the dope! More tomorrow.
1_beast
Posts: 5,642
Jul 28, 2011 4:16am
AHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THE4RINGZ;843884 wrote:As the second most knowledgable person on this site relating to these two leagues, here is my analysis team by team.
EDIT: you forgot to analize WCAL....
riders1
Posts: 2,275
Jul 28, 2011 8:26am
Hillsdale would be the last team into the present 8 team WCAL, I am not sure when they joined but 60-70's sounds about right. I think they replaced Triway in the league. As for the PAC7/8 Not sure how old they are but I know Triway was still in the Mohican as late as 2004 and CVCA and Timken were recent entries.
Pitman will have to get us updated there.
Pitman will have to get us updated there.
thePITman
Posts: 3,867
Jul 28, 2011 8:34am
This is good reading. Keep it coming!
The most accurate statement of all of them that I've seen so far is the following:
Each of the last few years I always tend to find myself researching how these two leagues fare against each other. When counting up the numbers, it always seems like "Conference A is running away with this" and then BAM! The other conference has a big year and evens things up. I'm a little busy today, but I'll try to find some time to do a little more research.
I will make one statement, though: Line up the PAC's #1 vs WCAL's #1, PAC's #2 vs WCAL's #2, etc. all the way down the line, and I think the PAC comes out on top in most the match-ups more often than not.
The most accurate statement of all of them that I've seen so far is the following:
Red Rum;844041 wrote:.. after a little research, I'm more inclined to think the balance shifts from year to year.
Each of the last few years I always tend to find myself researching how these two leagues fare against each other. When counting up the numbers, it always seems like "Conference A is running away with this" and then BAM! The other conference has a big year and evens things up. I'm a little busy today, but I'll try to find some time to do a little more research.
I will make one statement, though: Line up the PAC's #1 vs WCAL's #1, PAC's #2 vs WCAL's #2, etc. all the way down the line, and I think the PAC comes out on top in most the match-ups more often than not.
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was_that_it
Posts: 151
Jul 28, 2011 11:42am
I have attended the Tusky Valley/Hillsdale scrimmage the last couple years. The comparision of Dalton to Tusky is pretty accurate...as far as hitting and being hard nosed. In the scrimmage last year Tusky Valley out-hit Hillsdale in the beginning and it wasn't even close. Hillsdale didn't seem prepared. Both teams settled down and made plays after that. It was pretty even. It has been a very good first scrimmage for the Falcons these past few years. IMO the conferences definately shift year to year. Putting #1 vs. #1 ect. would be pretty even IMO
thePITman
Posts: 3,867
Jul 28, 2011 1:38pm
After a little research, here are some numbers I came up with:
(I have a spreadsheet with each league's teams, their W/L, lg W/L, W/L vs other league, teams from other league played, matchup of 1v1, 2v2, etc., and % of wins coming from league games broken down by year, etc. if you would like to double-check my work or play around)
Over the last 6 years (2005-2010 seasons):
Overall record: PAC 230-239, WCAL 259-245
- (disparity between total # games - PAC had only 7 teams from 2005-2007)
Record between leagues: PAC 21 WCAL 21
Playoff appearances (consider division): PAC 16 WCAL 16
Playoff record (consider division): PAC 4-16 WCAL 6-16 (neither very impressive)
Percent of all wins from league play: PAC 63.9% WCAL 64.9%
Average team record: PAC 5.11-5.31 WCAL 5.39-5.10
Non-league winning percentage: PAC 47.4% WCAL 54.2%
Per Calpreps, 1v1, 2v2, etc, back to 2007: PAC 17 WCAL 14
Interesting thing to note in the following Calpreps predictions below: Of the 1v1 and 2v2 matchups, the PAC was 7-1, and in 2008 the PAC took the top 4.
2010 Match-Ups
[2010] Manchester (Akron, OH) 28, [2010] Hillsdale (Jeromesville, OH) 26
[2010] Triway (Wooster, OH) 24, [2010] Norwayne (Creston, OH) 21
[2010] Dalton (OH) 24, [2010] Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy (Cuyahoga Falls, OH) 21
[2010] Northwestern (West Salem, OH) 22, [2010] Indian Valley (Gnadenhutten, OH) 21
[2010] Tuslaw (Massillon, OH) 28, [2010] Rittman (OH) 26
[2010] Tuscarawas Valley (Zoarville, OH) 24, [2010] Smithville (OH) 19
[2010] Waynedale (Apple Creek, OH) 22, [2010] Timken (Canton, OH) 17
[2010] Fairless (Navarre, OH) 38, [2010] Chippewa (Doylestown, OH) 14
PAC 5-3
2009 Match-Ups
[2009] Manchester (Akron, OH) 28, [2009] Dalton (OH) 21
[2009] Triway (Wooster, OH) 28, [2009] Hillsdale (Jeromesville, OH) 24
[2009] Waynedale (Apple Creek, OH) 17, [2009] Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy (Cuyahoga Falls, OH) 14
[2009] Northwestern (West Salem, OH) 17, [2009] Tuslaw (Massillon, OH) 12
[2009] Tuscarawas Valley (Zoarville, OH) 26, [2009] Smithville (OH) 24
[2009] Norwayne (Creston, OH) 31, [2009] Indian Valley (Gnadenhutten, OH) 14
[2009] Chippewa (Doylestown, OH) 27, [2009] Fairless (Navarre, OH) 24
[2009] Rittman (OH) 24, [2009] Timken (Canton, OH) 21
WCAL 5-3
2008 Match-Ups
[2008] Tuslaw (Massillon, OH) 21, [2008] Waynedale (Apple Creek, OH) 17
[2008] Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy (Cuyahoga Falls, OH) 28, [2008] Norwayne (Creston, OH) 14
[2008] Triway (Wooster, OH) 22, [2008] Dalton (OH) 14
[2008] Manchester (Akron, OH) 42, [2008] Hillsdale (Jeromesville, OH) 22
[2008] Smithville (OH) 26, [2008] Fairless (Navarre, OH) 10
[2008] Chippewa (Doylestown, OH) 31, [2008] Tuscarawas Valley (Zoarville, OH) 20
[2008] Timken (Canton, OH) 21, [2008] Northwestern (West Salem, OH) 20
[2008] Indian Valley (Gnadenhutten, OH) 28, [2008] Rittman (OH) 17
PAC 6-2
2007 Match-Ups
[2007] Waynedale (Apple Creek, OH) 28, [2007] Tuscarawas Valley (Zoarville, OH) 19
[2007] Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy (Cuyahoga Falls, OH) 17, [2007] Northwestern (West Salem, OH) 15
[2007] Hillsdale (Jeromesville, OH) 21, [2007] Tuslaw (Massillon, OH) 20
[2007] Norwayne (Creston, OH) 28, [2007] Triway (Wooster, OH) 21
[2007] Manchester (Akron, OH) 14, [2007] Dalton (OH) 13
[2007] Smithville (OH) 24, [2007] Timken (Canton, OH) 19
[2007] Fairless (Navarre, OH) 17, [2007] Chippewa (Doylestown, OH) 15 (worst PAC vs 2nd worst WCAL)
WCAL 4-3
(I have a spreadsheet with each league's teams, their W/L, lg W/L, W/L vs other league, teams from other league played, matchup of 1v1, 2v2, etc., and % of wins coming from league games broken down by year, etc. if you would like to double-check my work or play around)
Over the last 6 years (2005-2010 seasons):
Overall record: PAC 230-239, WCAL 259-245
- (disparity between total # games - PAC had only 7 teams from 2005-2007)
Record between leagues: PAC 21 WCAL 21
Playoff appearances (consider division): PAC 16 WCAL 16
Playoff record (consider division): PAC 4-16 WCAL 6-16 (neither very impressive)
Percent of all wins from league play: PAC 63.9% WCAL 64.9%
Average team record: PAC 5.11-5.31 WCAL 5.39-5.10
Non-league winning percentage: PAC 47.4% WCAL 54.2%
Per Calpreps, 1v1, 2v2, etc, back to 2007: PAC 17 WCAL 14
Interesting thing to note in the following Calpreps predictions below: Of the 1v1 and 2v2 matchups, the PAC was 7-1, and in 2008 the PAC took the top 4.
2010 Match-Ups
[2010] Manchester (Akron, OH) 28, [2010] Hillsdale (Jeromesville, OH) 26
[2010] Triway (Wooster, OH) 24, [2010] Norwayne (Creston, OH) 21
[2010] Dalton (OH) 24, [2010] Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy (Cuyahoga Falls, OH) 21
[2010] Northwestern (West Salem, OH) 22, [2010] Indian Valley (Gnadenhutten, OH) 21
[2010] Tuslaw (Massillon, OH) 28, [2010] Rittman (OH) 26
[2010] Tuscarawas Valley (Zoarville, OH) 24, [2010] Smithville (OH) 19
[2010] Waynedale (Apple Creek, OH) 22, [2010] Timken (Canton, OH) 17
[2010] Fairless (Navarre, OH) 38, [2010] Chippewa (Doylestown, OH) 14
PAC 5-3
2009 Match-Ups
[2009] Manchester (Akron, OH) 28, [2009] Dalton (OH) 21
[2009] Triway (Wooster, OH) 28, [2009] Hillsdale (Jeromesville, OH) 24
[2009] Waynedale (Apple Creek, OH) 17, [2009] Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy (Cuyahoga Falls, OH) 14
[2009] Northwestern (West Salem, OH) 17, [2009] Tuslaw (Massillon, OH) 12
[2009] Tuscarawas Valley (Zoarville, OH) 26, [2009] Smithville (OH) 24
[2009] Norwayne (Creston, OH) 31, [2009] Indian Valley (Gnadenhutten, OH) 14
[2009] Chippewa (Doylestown, OH) 27, [2009] Fairless (Navarre, OH) 24
[2009] Rittman (OH) 24, [2009] Timken (Canton, OH) 21
WCAL 5-3
2008 Match-Ups
[2008] Tuslaw (Massillon, OH) 21, [2008] Waynedale (Apple Creek, OH) 17
[2008] Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy (Cuyahoga Falls, OH) 28, [2008] Norwayne (Creston, OH) 14
[2008] Triway (Wooster, OH) 22, [2008] Dalton (OH) 14
[2008] Manchester (Akron, OH) 42, [2008] Hillsdale (Jeromesville, OH) 22
[2008] Smithville (OH) 26, [2008] Fairless (Navarre, OH) 10
[2008] Chippewa (Doylestown, OH) 31, [2008] Tuscarawas Valley (Zoarville, OH) 20
[2008] Timken (Canton, OH) 21, [2008] Northwestern (West Salem, OH) 20
[2008] Indian Valley (Gnadenhutten, OH) 28, [2008] Rittman (OH) 17
PAC 6-2
2007 Match-Ups
[2007] Waynedale (Apple Creek, OH) 28, [2007] Tuscarawas Valley (Zoarville, OH) 19
[2007] Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy (Cuyahoga Falls, OH) 17, [2007] Northwestern (West Salem, OH) 15
[2007] Hillsdale (Jeromesville, OH) 21, [2007] Tuslaw (Massillon, OH) 20
[2007] Norwayne (Creston, OH) 28, [2007] Triway (Wooster, OH) 21
[2007] Manchester (Akron, OH) 14, [2007] Dalton (OH) 13
[2007] Smithville (OH) 24, [2007] Timken (Canton, OH) 19
[2007] Fairless (Navarre, OH) 17, [2007] Chippewa (Doylestown, OH) 15 (worst PAC vs 2nd worst WCAL)
WCAL 4-3
THE4RINGZ
Posts: 16,816
Jul 28, 2011 1:42pm
8. Chippewa. No Busson and a fresh coach, would be a bottom feeder in the PAC but could hold their own against Fairless.1_beast;844086 wrote:AHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EDIT: you forgot to analize WCAL....
7. Rittman. Last year was a season to remember, especially if you were around in the mid 1980's that team last year had to bring back some fond memories. Could match up well with some PAC teams.
6. Waynedale. Usually scrimmages Indian Valley and plays well against them. Even though last year the sidelines made every stoppage in play seem like a fire drill, the younger kids will reap some rewards from the platoon situation last year. Prolly a middle of the pack in the PAC.
5. Dalton. Has fared well against PAC schools the past few years. Having the stones to schedule up like the Dawgs do helps them in the post season. New coach this season and an unseasoned team, but as I have said before you cannot count those kids out. Question..Will Dalton's marching band play the song "I will survive" during the halftime show this year? If not, they should.
4. Smithville. The Smithville v. Chester game was one that most people would usually circle on their calendars. Too bad they no longer play year in and year out. But given the age of both coaches, the probably both forgot to schedule the other team. If Smithville can get back on track they could play with anyone in the PAC.
3. Northwestern. Like most schools in the WCAL the success of the team any given year depends heavily on the kids on the team, the talent comes in waves. Thut has done a tremendous job here leveling things out and getting consistent play from his teams. Being able to throw the ball in the PAC is critical, with the right QB the Huskies could be an above average team in the PAC.
2. Hillsdale. Overcoming the history of a losing program is no easy task, the coaching staff in suburban Jeromesville is managing that very well. Their O line could cause some problems in the PAC, I only wonder if they can keep up speed wise with some of those teams? They control the clock on the ground, but can they stop those quick strike passes in the PAC? If they played every year like they did in 2010 they could be a contender in the PAC.
1. Norwayne. Did they catch lightening in a bottle in 2010 or are they now a legit program? Probably the same question everyone outside of Creston is asking themselves. Fairly balanced on O which could keep them in the PAC race, and again I will bring up the issue of speed, I think it is a valid question with some of these WCAL teams. Again, if they can play the way they did in 2010 they have a shot in being a top dog in the PAC.
Happy now Beast?
1_beast
Posts: 5,642
Jul 28, 2011 2:28pm
Just busting your chops my friend! Well done on your part and Pitmans....im too lazy for any extended typing and/or research.
Pitman...your numbers are amazing close! Im surprised at the paralells of these 2 conferances!
Pitman...your numbers are amazing close! Im surprised at the paralells of these 2 conferances!
L
luckydog
Posts: 200
Jul 28, 2011 2:38pm
"Question..Will Dalton's marching band play the song "I will survive" during the halftime show this year? If not, they should."]
WTF............ ringz
WTF............ ringz
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was_that_it
Posts: 151
Jul 28, 2011 2:57pm
Interesting reading, thanks PIT, ringz. Good stuff.
THE4RINGZ
Posts: 16,816
Jul 28, 2011 2:59pm
Seemed like a fair question.luckydog;844639 wrote:"Question..Will Dalton's marching band play the song "I will survive" during the halftime show this year? If not, they should."]
WTF............ ringz
riders1
Posts: 2,275
Jul 28, 2011 3:07pm
Ringz, you need to start a pickem for the WCAL vs PAC games this season.
7 matchups against each other
8/26
Smithville @ Tuslaw
Tusky Valley @ Waynedale
9/2
Dalton @ Tuslaw
Norwayne @ CVCA
9/9
Dalton @ Timken
Fairless @ Smithville
Triway @ Waynedale
5-2 WCAL ?
7 matchups against each other
8/26
Smithville @ Tuslaw
Tusky Valley @ Waynedale
9/2
Dalton @ Tuslaw
Norwayne @ CVCA
9/9
Dalton @ Timken
Fairless @ Smithville
Triway @ Waynedale
5-2 WCAL ?
THE4RINGZ
Posts: 16,816
Jul 28, 2011 3:10pm
riders1;844682 wrote:Ringz, you need to start a pickem for the WCAL vs PAC games this season.
7 matchups against each other
8/26
Smithville @ Tuslaw
Tusky Valley @ Waynedale
9/2
Dalton @ Tuslaw
Norwayne @ CVCA
9/9
Dalton @ Timken
Fairless @ Smithville
Triway @ Waynedale
5-2 WCAL ?
I don't know how to do a pick 'em, but here are my picks in those games.
Smithville
Tusky Valley
Tuslaw
Norwayne
Timken
Smithville
Triway
So PAC 4-3?