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Sonofanump
Feb 9, 2011 9:46pm
With all the Pittsburgh folks on this site, I am surprised I did not see a thread on this already.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11040/1124149-100.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11040/1124149-100.stm
like_that
Posts: 26,625
Feb 9, 2011 9:54pm
Do I need to even say it?
GoPens
Posts: 2,339
Feb 9, 2011 9:56pm
Normally, there should be outrage that a 1-11 pitcher won over 2 million in arbitration, however since this will cost Nutting some of his much loved money so I lol'd when I heard this.
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rock_knutne
Feb 9, 2011 10:02pm
This just shows what's dreadfully wrong with baseball. Although, as GoPens said, I don't feel bad that Bob Nutting got shafted
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dave
Posts: 4,558
Feb 9, 2011 10:11pm
Gotta love the Pirates. A guy who gives you a 4 ERA over half a season and who had a solid season the year before is definitely worth $2mil.
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september63
Posts: 5,789
Feb 9, 2011 10:33pm
Example # 113........What is wrong with MLB.
like_that
Posts: 26,625
Feb 9, 2011 11:05pm
september63;672410 wrote:Example # 113........What is wrong with MLB.
+1
killer_ewok
Posts: 11,379
Feb 9, 2011 11:08pm
Preposterous.
Little Danny
Posts: 4,288
Feb 9, 2011 11:53pm
I am an out of shape guy who will be 38 years old very soon. This guy only won one game last year. Heck I think I could possibly win one game with a bunch of major league ball players fielding for me. The Pirates could've saved themselves a lot of money and paid me $200K v. the 2M they will be paying this guy.
Heretic
Posts: 18,820
Feb 10, 2011 12:43am
I didn't really see a huge issue with it. Ohlendorf was arguably the team's best starter in '09. He was under 4 ERA-wise until his final start before going on the DL. His record has FAR more to do with horrid run support than anything concerning him...at least most of the year...he did have back issues early on that limited his effectiveness. But even when he pitched well after getting over that, he got no help.
Really...you have a pitcher with 12 decisions and an ERA of barely over 4. Who's going to guess his record is 1-11? Ross wasn't Charlie Morton...he was just a guy who had a horrible luck year. At least it's only $2M...it WOULD suck if he was getting Jake Westbrook money for that sort of current "production".
Really...you have a pitcher with 12 decisions and an ERA of barely over 4. Who's going to guess his record is 1-11? Ross wasn't Charlie Morton...he was just a guy who had a horrible luck year. At least it's only $2M...it WOULD suck if he was getting Jake Westbrook money for that sort of current "production".
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rock_knutne
Feb 10, 2011 5:21am
For starters, arbitration! How in the world could this guy be awarded a 1.5 million dollar raise?september63;672410 wrote:Example # 113........What is wrong with MLB.
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dave
Posts: 4,558
Feb 10, 2011 9:43am
rock_knutne;672646 wrote:For starters, arbitration! How in the world could this guy be awarded a 1.5 million dollar raise?
because he's pitched well the last 2 years when healthy. Record is a near useless stat for starting pitchers.
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rock_knutne
Feb 10, 2011 9:54am
One win is a useless stat?dave;672769 wrote:because he's pitched well the last 2 years when healthy. Record is a near useless stat for starting pitchers.
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thavoice
Posts: 14,376
Feb 10, 2011 10:07am
Just like a BA for hitters, all stats should be looked at. Wins, ERA, etc. Few years ago the Reds had a pitcher who had a TERRIBLE ERA...like over 5, and he was a few games over .500 late in the season because the team hit like crazy when he pitched, but other guys has worse records than him with better stats.
1-11 is hard to say is productive, but if he had a good ERA, and has pitched well in the past..........maybe he is worth it.
As a pitcher you just need to give up one run less than the other team.
1-11 is hard to say is productive, but if he had a good ERA, and has pitched well in the past..........maybe he is worth it.
As a pitcher you just need to give up one run less than the other team.
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dave
Posts: 4,558
Feb 10, 2011 10:20am
thavoice;672802 wrote:Just like a BA for hitters, all stats should be looked at. Wins, ERA, etc. Few years ago the Reds had a pitcher who had a TERRIBLE ERA...like over 5, and he was a few games over .500 late in the season because the team hit like crazy when he pitched, but other guys has worse records than him with better stats.
1-11 is hard to say is productive, but if he had a good ERA, and has pitched well in the past..........maybe he is worth it.
As a pitcher you just need to give up one run less than the other team.
You talking about Matt Belisle? You are making a case against using W's. Should he have been paid more than others who probably had significantly better numbers?
Arbitration is about setting value for a player based on the rest of the league. W's are heavily based on the team a player is on and rely on team defense and offense. You just can't use record, it's not a useless stat but it is in arbitration.
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thavoice
Posts: 14,376
Feb 10, 2011 10:52am
Wasnt him...forget his name off the top of my head. For quite awhile ihs ERA was atrocious but the team was averaging over 7 runs a game when he pitched. By the end of the season it all evened out but for a good stretche he had over a 5 ERA and a few games over 500.
I wanna say paul wilson but looked up his stats and it does not support what I said. I remember listening to Tracy Jones on Extra Innings and washing my car on a sundy afternoon and that was a big discussion.....I think maybe Harang had a good ERA but bad record and this pitcher had a terrible ErA but good record at the time
I wanna say paul wilson but looked up his stats and it does not support what I said. I remember listening to Tracy Jones on Extra Innings and washing my car on a sundy afternoon and that was a big discussion.....I think maybe Harang had a good ERA but bad record and this pitcher had a terrible ErA but good record at the time
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thavoice
Posts: 14,376
Feb 10, 2011 10:53am
Thing about arbitration.....arbitor picks one of the figures. What did the team offer? They must have terribly lowballed him and the arbitor had not other option I guess
Automatik
Posts: 14,632
Feb 10, 2011 10:56am
dave;672769 wrote:because he's pitched well the last 2 years when healthy. Record is a near useless stat for starting pitchers.
I would agree when you are a starter for Pittsburgh.
I'd like to hear what Mark Madden had to say about this. His rants about the Pirates are hilarious.
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dat dude
Posts: 1,564
Feb 10, 2011 11:24am
Wins and Losses for a pitcher are the worst statistical indication of value.
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thavoice
Posts: 14,376
Feb 10, 2011 11:29am
Not particularly. It all evens out where a good pitcher will have a good record and a bad one...not so much. It is one indicator to look at.
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dave
Posts: 4,558
Feb 10, 2011 11:32am
I'm pretty sure that was Bronson then. He had a year where he got great run support but didn't pitch great til the end of the year. Maybe 3 or 4 years ago.thavoice;672851 wrote:Wasnt him...forget his name off the top of my head. For quite awhile ihs ERA was atrocious but the team was averaging over 7 runs a game when he pitched. By the end of the season it all evened out but for a good stretche he had over a 5 ERA and a few games over 500.
I wanna say paul wilson but looked up his stats and it does not support what I said. I remember listening to Tracy Jones on Extra Innings and washing my car on a sundy afternoon and that was a big discussion.....I think maybe Harang had a good ERA but bad record and this pitcher had a terrible ErA but good record at the time
Harang pitched about the same and almost lost 20 games.
Heretic
Posts: 18,820
Feb 10, 2011 11:38am
thavoice;672854 wrote:Thing about arbitration.....arbitor picks one of the figures. What did the team offer? They must have terribly lowballed him and the arbitor had not other option I guess
Going off memory from the Pirates blog I read, the difference was something like 600K to 650K. Maybe a bit more, but not much.
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dat dude
Posts: 1,564
Feb 10, 2011 11:55am
thavoice;672911 wrote:Not particularly. It all evens out where a good pitcher will have a good record and a bad one...not so much. It is one indicator to look at.
Disagree. Which statistic is a worse indicator?
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dave
Posts: 4,558
Feb 10, 2011 12:06pm
dat dude;672973 wrote:Disagree. Which statistic is a worse indicator?
Cliff Lee was 12-9 last year, that's a much better indicator than his 10/1 K/BB ratio or his 1.00 WHIP
Heretic
Posts: 18,820
Feb 10, 2011 2:55pm
dave;673008 wrote:Cliff Lee was 12-9 last year, that's a much better indicator than his 10/1 K/BB ratio or his 1.00 WHIP
Or Felix Hernandez. Only 13-12. Mediocre dude...even if he had a 1.06 WHIP, .212 BA against and a 2.27 ERA to go with the Cy Young award for last year.
If you look at Ohlendorf's ERA/WHIP, his numbers were comparable and often a bit better (on different scales based on how many innings pitched) to Leake, Volquez and Bailey for the Reds or Talbot, Tomlin and Westbrook for the Indians. In other words, not a bad guy, but one who due to bad luck, had a horrible record.