Pirates lose arbitration case with 1-11 pitcher

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like_that

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Feb 9, 2011 9:54 PM
Do I need to even say it?
Feb 9, 2011 9:54pm
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GoPens

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2,339 posts
Feb 9, 2011 9:56 PM
Normally, there should be outrage that a 1-11 pitcher won over 2 million in arbitration, however since this will cost Nutting some of his much loved money so I lol'd when I heard this.
Feb 9, 2011 9:56pm
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rock_knutne

Feb 9, 2011 10:02 PM
This just shows what's dreadfully wrong with baseball. Although, as GoPens said, I don't feel bad that Bob Nutting got shafted
Feb 9, 2011 10:02pm
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dave

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Feb 9, 2011 10:11 PM
Gotta love the Pirates. A guy who gives you a 4 ERA over half a season and who had a solid season the year before is definitely worth $2mil.
Feb 9, 2011 10:11pm
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september63

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Feb 9, 2011 10:33 PM
Example # 113........What is wrong with MLB.
Feb 9, 2011 10:33pm
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like_that

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Feb 9, 2011 11:05 PM
september63;672410 wrote:Example # 113........What is wrong with MLB.

+1
Feb 9, 2011 11:05pm
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killer_ewok

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Feb 9, 2011 11:08 PM
Preposterous.
Feb 9, 2011 11:08pm
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Little Danny

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Feb 9, 2011 11:53 PM
I am an out of shape guy who will be 38 years old very soon. This guy only won one game last year. Heck I think I could possibly win one game with a bunch of major league ball players fielding for me. The Pirates could've saved themselves a lot of money and paid me $200K v. the 2M they will be paying this guy.
Feb 9, 2011 11:53pm
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Heretic

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Feb 10, 2011 12:43 AM
I didn't really see a huge issue with it. Ohlendorf was arguably the team's best starter in '09. He was under 4 ERA-wise until his final start before going on the DL. His record has FAR more to do with horrid run support than anything concerning him...at least most of the year...he did have back issues early on that limited his effectiveness. But even when he pitched well after getting over that, he got no help.

Really...you have a pitcher with 12 decisions and an ERA of barely over 4. Who's going to guess his record is 1-11? Ross wasn't Charlie Morton...he was just a guy who had a horrible luck year. At least it's only $2M...it WOULD suck if he was getting Jake Westbrook money for that sort of current "production".
Feb 10, 2011 12:43am
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rock_knutne

Feb 10, 2011 5:21 AM
september63;672410 wrote:Example # 113........What is wrong with MLB.
For starters, arbitration! How in the world could this guy be awarded a 1.5 million dollar raise?
Feb 10, 2011 5:21am
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dave

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4,558 posts
Feb 10, 2011 9:43 AM
rock_knutne;672646 wrote:For starters, arbitration! How in the world could this guy be awarded a 1.5 million dollar raise?

because he's pitched well the last 2 years when healthy. Record is a near useless stat for starting pitchers.
Feb 10, 2011 9:43am
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rock_knutne

Feb 10, 2011 9:54 AM
dave;672769 wrote:because he's pitched well the last 2 years when healthy. Record is a near useless stat for starting pitchers.
One win is a useless stat?
Feb 10, 2011 9:54am
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thavoice

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14,376 posts
Feb 10, 2011 10:07 AM
Just like a BA for hitters, all stats should be looked at. Wins, ERA, etc. Few years ago the Reds had a pitcher who had a TERRIBLE ERA...like over 5, and he was a few games over .500 late in the season because the team hit like crazy when he pitched, but other guys has worse records than him with better stats.

1-11 is hard to say is productive, but if he had a good ERA, and has pitched well in the past..........maybe he is worth it.

As a pitcher you just need to give up one run less than the other team.
Feb 10, 2011 10:07am
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dave

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Feb 10, 2011 10:20 AM
thavoice;672802 wrote:Just like a BA for hitters, all stats should be looked at. Wins, ERA, etc. Few years ago the Reds had a pitcher who had a TERRIBLE ERA...like over 5, and he was a few games over .500 late in the season because the team hit like crazy when he pitched, but other guys has worse records than him with better stats.

1-11 is hard to say is productive, but if he had a good ERA, and has pitched well in the past..........maybe he is worth it.

As a pitcher you just need to give up one run less than the other team.

You talking about Matt Belisle? You are making a case against using W's. Should he have been paid more than others who probably had significantly better numbers?

Arbitration is about setting value for a player based on the rest of the league. W's are heavily based on the team a player is on and rely on team defense and offense. You just can't use record, it's not a useless stat but it is in arbitration.
Feb 10, 2011 10:20am
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thavoice

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Feb 10, 2011 10:52 AM
Wasnt him...forget his name off the top of my head. For quite awhile ihs ERA was atrocious but the team was averaging over 7 runs a game when he pitched. By the end of the season it all evened out but for a good stretche he had over a 5 ERA and a few games over 500.

I wanna say paul wilson but looked up his stats and it does not support what I said. I remember listening to Tracy Jones on Extra Innings and washing my car on a sundy afternoon and that was a big discussion.....I think maybe Harang had a good ERA but bad record and this pitcher had a terrible ErA but good record at the time
Feb 10, 2011 10:52am
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thavoice

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Feb 10, 2011 10:53 AM
Thing about arbitration.....arbitor picks one of the figures. What did the team offer? They must have terribly lowballed him and the arbitor had not other option I guess
Feb 10, 2011 10:53am
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Automatik

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Feb 10, 2011 10:56 AM
dave;672769 wrote:because he's pitched well the last 2 years when healthy. Record is a near useless stat for starting pitchers.

I would agree when you are a starter for Pittsburgh.

I'd like to hear what Mark Madden had to say about this. His rants about the Pirates are hilarious.
Feb 10, 2011 10:56am
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dat dude

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1,564 posts
Feb 10, 2011 11:24 AM
Wins and Losses for a pitcher are the worst statistical indication of value.
Feb 10, 2011 11:24am
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thavoice

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Feb 10, 2011 11:29 AM
Not particularly. It all evens out where a good pitcher will have a good record and a bad one...not so much. It is one indicator to look at.
Feb 10, 2011 11:29am
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dave

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4,558 posts
Feb 10, 2011 11:32 AM
thavoice;672851 wrote:Wasnt him...forget his name off the top of my head. For quite awhile ihs ERA was atrocious but the team was averaging over 7 runs a game when he pitched. By the end of the season it all evened out but for a good stretche he had over a 5 ERA and a few games over 500.

I wanna say paul wilson but looked up his stats and it does not support what I said. I remember listening to Tracy Jones on Extra Innings and washing my car on a sundy afternoon and that was a big discussion.....I think maybe Harang had a good ERA but bad record and this pitcher had a terrible ErA but good record at the time
I'm pretty sure that was Bronson then. He had a year where he got great run support but didn't pitch great til the end of the year. Maybe 3 or 4 years ago.

Harang pitched about the same and almost lost 20 games.
Feb 10, 2011 11:32am
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Heretic

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Feb 10, 2011 11:38 AM
thavoice;672854 wrote:Thing about arbitration.....arbitor picks one of the figures. What did the team offer? They must have terribly lowballed him and the arbitor had not other option I guess

Going off memory from the Pirates blog I read, the difference was something like 600K to 650K. Maybe a bit more, but not much.
Feb 10, 2011 11:38am
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dat dude

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1,564 posts
Feb 10, 2011 11:55 AM
thavoice;672911 wrote:Not particularly. It all evens out where a good pitcher will have a good record and a bad one...not so much. It is one indicator to look at.

Disagree. Which statistic is a worse indicator?
Feb 10, 2011 11:55am
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dave

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Feb 10, 2011 12:06 PM
dat dude;672973 wrote:Disagree. Which statistic is a worse indicator?

Cliff Lee was 12-9 last year, that's a much better indicator than his 10/1 K/BB ratio or his 1.00 WHIP :D
Feb 10, 2011 12:06pm
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Heretic

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Feb 10, 2011 2:55 PM
dave;673008 wrote:Cliff Lee was 12-9 last year, that's a much better indicator than his 10/1 K/BB ratio or his 1.00 WHIP :D

Or Felix Hernandez. Only 13-12. Mediocre dude...even if he had a 1.06 WHIP, .212 BA against and a 2.27 ERA to go with the Cy Young award for last year.

If you look at Ohlendorf's ERA/WHIP, his numbers were comparable and often a bit better (on different scales based on how many innings pitched) to Leake, Volquez and Bailey for the Reds or Talbot, Tomlin and Westbrook for the Indians. In other words, not a bad guy, but one who due to bad luck, had a horrible record.
Feb 10, 2011 2:55pm