gut;666220 wrote:To be fair, relying on a promised program as part of the retirement plan is hardly irresponsible.

I agree. If I had the liberty of placing my money that was diverted to SS in a simple saving account or other investment, I doubt I'd be accused of being a selfish SOB for expecting to be able to withdraw my money from that account at retirement. But because the Feds in their infinite New Deal socialist stupidity implemented SS back in the late 30's and made it the law of the land, I'm an irresponsible self-centered Boomer for expecting that my $250,000 worth of mandated contributions made over 40 years will be disbursed to me as promised at retirement.

gut;666220 wrote:That said, people should not have planned to retire with the bare minimum and it should not have been the sole source of savings.

I agree with this as well. But when you stop and think about it, part of the reason Roosevelt thought the Feds needed to step in and take care of us by implementing SS is because very few people then or today have the discipline to plan for their futures when human nature is to address the needs, wants and desires of the moment. Unfortunately when we as a society give up our liberties and allow the government to care of us, a social contract occurs and it is very, very difficult to make it go away. It is also very, very easy to say, "Well I there's always SS."

gut;666220 wrote:It's only fair that the voters who have been asleep at the polls share in that misery.

This. But apparently those of us who voted responsibly but nevertheless frequently lost to those who prefer Big Government policies are doomed to share in that misery. Gotta love our democratic republic though!

And since we as a society agreed to make SS the law of the land, which is more irresponsible: Those of us who believed in the social contract or the government (IE: us) who appears poised to renege on the promise?

So... has anybody changed their minds yet?

believer;666226 wrote:But apparently those of us who voted responsibly but nevertheless frequently lost to those who prefer Big Government policies are doomed to share in that misery. Gotta love our democratic republic though!

And since we as a society agreed to make SS the law of the land, which is more irresponsible: Those of us who believed in the social contract or the government (IE: us) who appears poised to renege on the promise?

Fair points, however, did you do more than just vote against Big Government? Did you become an activist? Did you campaign for those you voted for? 99.99% did not, and IMO they are not off the hook.

With my military pension, savings, 401K from the current job, and the wife's teacher retirement, I could give a shit whether all the money I have paid into SS is there or not in a couple years. This county has been on the fast track to bankruptcy for a while now. Raping the SS fund will only delay the inevitable. Come to Argentina. Another 1500 and my ranch down there will be free and clear. Even if the pensions are stopped, which I suspect will happen sooner of later, I will be out catching peacock bass while you snotty nosed little bastards are digging through the dumpsters. Let the lazy assed younger generations whine their life away in this shithole of a country. My apologies to the 2 percent of youngsters here who are worth a shit.

I did not procreate so spare me the children/grandchildren drivel.

gut;666274 wrote:Fair points, however, did you do more than just vote against Big Government? Did you become an activist? Did you campaign for those you voted for? 99.99% did not, and IMO they are not off the hook.

I actively knocked on doors for Reagan when I was a punk 22 year old freshman military veteran at Ohio University. Is that active enough or did I have to set myself on fire on College Green to qualify?

CenterBHSFan;666235 wrote:So... has anybody changed their minds yet?

Nope...which is precisely why this issue isn't likely to fade away quietly.

berry;666368 wrote:With my military pension, savings, 401K from the current job, and the wife's teacher retirement, I could give a shit whether all the money I have paid into SS is there or not in a couple years. This county has been on the fast track to bankruptcy for a while now. Raping the SS fund will only delay the inevitable. Come to Argentina. Another 1500 and my ranch down there will be free and clear. Even if the pensions are stopped, which I suspect will happen sooner of later, I will be out catching peacock bass while you snotty nosed little bastards are digging through the dumpsters. Let the lazy assed younger generations whine their life away in this shithole of a country. My apologies to the 2 percent of youngsters here who are worth a shit.

I did not procreate so spare me the children/grandchildren drivel.

I'm glad you said that because I would have asked why your federal military pension is any more immune to scrutiny than the $250,000 I've deposited by mandate in SS over the past 40 years. Enjoy your Argentina lifestyle you stinking Yankee gringo.

gut;666219 wrote:I use the term "pork" loosely to refer to ALL forms of wasteful, unnecessary and inefficient govt spending. At the end of the day, ALL govt spending theoretically has social benefit, that's it's purpose. Defense and the security it affords is a social benefit because I don't have to own a gun and defend my assets. My argument is basically you were paying, or thought you were paying, for this social program, but you also received benefit from other social programs for which you didn't pay for. Ignorance is bliss until the bill comes due.

Fair enough. I agree with the rest of your posts, I don't really feel any additional comment is needed.

gut;666223 wrote:It's not consumption tax treatment, unless you classify savings as a consumption choice (and many economists do). You are simply deferring taxes to a time you expect to be earning less and thus in a lower tax bracket. 401k tax treatment encourages savings. Income taxes are a tax on productivity, and so a 401k allows you to average or pro-rate that "productivity" over your entire life, as opposed to just your working years, to better match your true consumption.

Thanks, gut. I knew it was something like that, but I just couldn't process it yesterday. It also explains why there is a cap, because only the rat-fink evil scum rich would ever contribute more than their "fair share" and who wants to help those prick bastards anyway? :rolleyes:

CenterBHSFan;666235 wrote:So... has anybody changed their minds yet?

It's pretty sad that some here haven't. One side is posting facts, the other, opinion. I guess this explains why the country is the way that it is, ignorance is leading the masses.

sleeper;666386 wrote:It's pretty sad that some here haven't. One side is posting facts, the other, opinion. I guess this explains why the country is the way that it is, ignorance is leading the masses.

FACT: I've deposited $250,000 of my labor into SS over 40 years. It's reasonable to expect it to be returned. It's not ignorance...it's simple reality.

believer - I've been doing some reading on the "discussion" between sleeper, dwcrew, and yourself. What I've found is disturbing, yet, it is what it is. When Social Security was originally being put together, discussed, sold by FDR, and implemented, it was indeed true that people were told that it was a retirement account available for them, should they live long enough to qualifiy for its benefits. Unfortunately, like most socialist ideas, it was not put into law this way. It is nothing more than a tax with a fancy name to make people "feel good". Isn't that the bedrock of socialistic economic principles...to make people "feel good"? But I digress. Here is an article from Walter Williams in 2005 that summarizes it quite succinctly -

http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/index.php?news=4158

Now....what new law was put into effect by those that worship at the altar of FDR that had a "feel good" mandate that everyone should purchase insurance and then when it was challenged in court...it became a tax? Just like Social Security. Sold one way and then implemented legally another way. I am with you in spirit on wanting back what I paid in as a minimum, but it's not there for me....regardless of how they send me yearly statements like it's my money. Lying pricks. We've been lied to again...just like Lucy pulling the football again on us poor dupes. And people wonder why the Tea Party is gaining in popularity.

believer;666394 wrote:FACT: I've deposited $250,000 of my labor into SS over 40 years. It's reasonable to expect it to be returned. It's not ignorance...it's simple reality.

Has anyone ever disputed this? My generation is going to do the same, and its not going to be returned. Some of yours won't either. FACT. This isn't a debate, that is reality. I don't know why you keep bringing this up.

"FACT: I've deposited $250,000 of my labor into SS over 40 years. It's reasonable to expect it to be returned. It's not ignorance...it's simple reality."

If that is the case, shouldn't younger people expect that whatever they pay in should in turn be returned? Why is their generation different? This is a ponzi scheme. If we all keep this attitude it can, and most definitely will, fail. Why are you still arguing that your generation is special?

Manhattan Buckeye;666429 wrote:Why are you still arguing that your generation is special?

For me, it's because of the lying. It's because the elites make it appear to be our money that we paid into the system when they know that it isn't. It's because of their idiotic promise that it will be there for me. Then these assholes call it a "trust fund". "Trust"...WTF does that mean? It isn't a trust fund..it is a Ponzi and those at the end will be treated like anyone else that bought into a Ponzi scheme....shit outta luck.

Manhattan Buckeye;666429 wrote:"FACT: I've deposited $250,000 of my labor into SS over 40 years. It's reasonable to expect it to be returned. It's not ignorance...it's simple reality."

If that is the case, shouldn't younger people expect that whatever they pay in should in turn be returned? Why is their generation different? This is a ponzi scheme. If we all keep this attitude it can, and most definitely will, fail. Why are you still arguing that your generation is special?

This is a question, among others, that he refuses to answer. But he believes in the will of the American people, that they will find a way to resolve this crisis, especially the whining, lazy, spoiled ones of my generation. :rolleyes:

berry;666368 wrote:With my military pension, savings, 401K from the current job, and the wife's teacher retirement, I could give a shit whether all the money I have paid into SS is there or not in a couple years. This county has been on the fast track to bankruptcy for a while now. Raping the SS fund will only delay the inevitable. Come to Argentina. Another 1500 and my ranch down there will be free and clear. Even if the pensions are stopped, which I suspect will happen sooner of later, I will be out catching peacock bass while you snotty nosed little bastards are digging through the dumpsters. Let the lazy assed younger generations whine their life away in this shithole of a country. My apologies to the 2 percent of youngsters here who are worth a shit.

I did not procreate so spare me the children/grandchildren drivel.

Right, because Argentina is a much better country than the United States. SMH

The Baby Boomers are starting to retire now....and the unemployment rate is falling. A parallel maybe? Yup, us Boomers had it a lot rougher than the Xers,Yers and so on. So many more people to compete against.

The spoiled bitches in their twenties and thirties wil be in higher demand....as us boomers continue to call it quits.

Footwedge;666867 wrote:The Baby Boomers are starting to retire now....and the unemployment rate is falling. A parallel maybe? Yup, us Boomers had it a lot rougher than the Xers,Yers and so on. So many more people to compete against.

The spoiled bitches in their twenties and thirties wil be in higher demand....as us boomers continue to call it quits.

This is a red herring and is nothing compared to the financial Armageddon that my generation is going to experience, nor the obvious fact that we will be paying into a system in which we will receive nothing.

Footwedge;666867 wrote:The Baby Boomers are starting to retire now....and the unemployment rate is falling. A parallel maybe? Yup, us Boomers had it a lot rougher than the Xers,Yers and so on. So many more people to compete against.

The spoiled bitches in their twenties and thirties wil be in higher demand....as us boomers continue to call it quits.

In fairness, the unemployment rate is falling because many people are falling of the radar and not collecting benefits anymore, not because they are finding employment. Also, as Boomers retire, many of those jobs are eliminated or consolidated which actually creates less opportunity for Gen Xers and Yers to fill vacancies. Not too mention that many Boomers didn't have to worry about jobs being outsourced to foreign countries when they were entering the workforce like the younger generations have to face. More jobs were available for a larger workforce back when you entered the workforce. Millions of manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas over the last couple of decades.

dwccrew;668013 wrote: Not too mention that many Boomers didn't have to worry about jobs being outsourced to foreign countries when they were entering the workforce like the younger generations have to face. More jobs were available for a larger workforce back when you entered the workforce. Millions of manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas over the last couple of decades.

These are great points. Not only do they present economic problems for us, they can very easily become national security issues. Many of our economic problems started when we started relying on too many foreign countries for things such as oil, steel, and many other items. We can easily produce those items, and it would provide jobs to many Americans. Unfortunately, both parties have failed to protect American jobs. Many of these things have been issues since the 70's, but not enough is done to protect American jobs.

Manhattan Buckeye;666429 wrote:"FACT: I've deposited $250,000 of my labor into SS over 40 years. It's reasonable to expect it to be returned. It's not ignorance...it's simple reality."

If that is the case, shouldn't younger people expect that whatever they pay in should in turn be returned? Why is their generation different? This is a ponzi scheme. If we all keep this attitude it can, and most definitely will, fail. Why are you still arguing that your generation is special?

I have never in all of these discussions EVER suggested that the Gen X and Y-ers are any different than Boomers in their desire or right to expect that whatever they've "contributed" to SS should be repaid.

I've NEVER even once argued that the Boomers are "special." YOUR words, not mine.

My only argument has been that I've been required by law to contribute $250,000 of MY MONEY to SS over the past 40 years. That's a fact. That's a reality. That has indeed occurred. I've also been receiving annual statements (IE: documentation) from the Feds acknowledging how much I've contributed over my lifetime and also showing how much I can expect to receive every month when I reach 66 and a half.

In the private realm, that's a contract. But oh that's right....for you and Sleeper, this is just another Federal lie. So since the government is us, I guess this means you and Sleeper are lying to me.

And for whatever it's worth here's another reason I'm so adamant about this. I have 9 years of military service to my credit. Long before Sleeper was a gleam in his daddy's eyes and while I was serving this great nation, FICA "contributions" were being taken from my paltry military paychecks. Unless I'm missing something it's OK for me to serve our country, it's OK for the Feds to confiscate a portion of my military labor, yet it's selfish of me to expect the Feds to repay those confiscated dollars at retirement as promised???

In my naive selfish SOB Boomer world my mandated contributions to SS are no different than if I had put that money in some sort of private investment.

I do not understand the mindset that says the Feds can legally mandate they can confiscate a significant portion my labor over 40 years, acknowledge to me in writing the sum of my contributions, show me how much my monthly checks will not may be at retirement age, and then not necessarily be legally obligated to make good on the promise.

Still, 23 year old Gen Y-ers like Sleeper who have a but small fraction of what I and other Boomers have contributed to the "trust" fund feel smug and righteous about calling Boomers selfish SOB's for the audacity of wanting our money back. To be fair, I fully support you and Sleeper in wanting YOUR money back as well.

berry;666368 wrote:With my military pension, savings, 401K from the current job, and the wife's teacher retirement, I could give a shit whether all the money I have paid into SS is there or not in a couple years. This county has been on the fast track to bankruptcy for a while now. Raping the SS fund will only delay the inevitable. Come to Argentina. Another 1500 and my ranch down there will be free and clear. Even if the pensions are stopped, which I suspect will happen sooner of later, I will be out catching peacock bass while you snotty nosed little bastards are digging through the dumpsters. Let the lazy assed younger generations whine their life away in this shithole of a country. My apologies to the 2 percent of youngsters here who are worth a shit.

I did not procreate so spare me the children/grandchildren drivel.

I don't disagree that there are going to be a ton of people my age facing serious financial issues, and I'm doing my best to ensure I'm not one of them, but I still want them to stop the entitlement attitude ... the mis-prioritized spending ... and try to help contribute to the solution, instead of being part of the problem.

This nation was not built on generational warfare. You calling the subsequent generations "snotty nosed little bastards" and "lazy ass younger generations" is no better or more correct than me calling previous generations "cranky, senile bastards" or "useless, out-of-touch liabilities to society."

Neither is true, when speaking of a generation.

"Still, 23 year old Gen Y-ers like Sleeper who have a but small fraction of what I and other Boomers have contributed to the "trust" fund feel smug and righteous about calling Boomers selfish SOB's for the audacity of wanting our money back. To be fair, I fully support you and Sleeper in wanting YOUR money back as well. "

That's very noble, but if Sleeper and I insist on that the SS system will fail. At some point someone will have to realize they won't get what they put in to it...it is a mathematical impossibility.

believer;668111 wrote:I have never in all of these discussions EVER suggested that the Gen X and Y-ers are any different than Boomers in their desire or right to expect that whatever they've "contributed" to SS should be repaid.

I've NEVER even once argued that the Boomers are "special." YOUR words, not mine.

. . .

Still, 23 year old Gen Y-ers like Sleeper who have a but small fraction of what I and other Boomers have contributed to the "trust" fund feel smug and righteous about calling Boomers selfish SOB's for the audacity of wanting our money back. To be fair, I fully support you and Sleeper in wanting YOUR money back as well.

You have a right to get back what you put in. Sleeper and I have a right not to pay what we won't get back. We both have "rights" that conflict. Because, as you say, neither generation is "special," there's no reason to unduly favor Boomers by giving them back what they've paid in.

In the private realm, that's a contract. But oh that's right....for you and Sleeper, this is just another Federal lie. So since the government is us, I guess this means you and Sleeper are lying to me.

In the private realm, that's a Ponzi scheme.

Same old argument believer. I don't think its right either that they should take your benefits that you've paid into for the past 40 years, but this is reality, this system is BROKEN. And you, as well as I, will have to fix it. That is the reality, and something its taken 11 pages for you to still not understand.

Once again, bringing my age into has nothing to do with it. I know more about this than you do, that should embarrass the shit out of you for whatever age you are. And you never answered my question about the numbers, because you don't have a flippin' clue what you are talking about.

fan_from_texas;668455 wrote:You have a right to get back what you put in. Sleeper and I have a right not to pay what we won't get back. We both have "rights" that conflict. Because, as you say, neither generation is "special," there's no reason to unduly favor Boomers by giving them back what they've paid in.



In the private realm, that's a Ponzi scheme.

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