BYU close to moving to independent status in football

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gorocks99's avatar

gorocks99

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Aug 18, 2010 10:50 AM
Per ESPN: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5473151

Thoughts? I kind of like the move, they're a legit program that can schedule games against decent competition and probably, due to the Mormon affiliation, draw some fans for road games.
Aug 18, 2010 10:50am
lhslep134's avatar

lhslep134

why so serious?

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Aug 18, 2010 11:08 AM
I think it's a well calculated decision, and one that is in the best interests for them.

Interesting to say the elast.
Aug 18, 2010 11:08am
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enigmaax

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Aug 18, 2010 11:14 AM
We'll see how it works out for them, but I've been saying for a long time if schools like Utah, BYU, TCU, etc. want a "fair" shot at BCS titles, they need to make a move to earn it. There were always two options - get in a BCS conference or go independent. Utah has now done that. Looks like BYU is about to. No excuses for anyone else who sits around in a crappy little conference and complains about equity (Boise State).
Aug 18, 2010 11:14am
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krambman

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Aug 18, 2010 12:03 PM
Boy, Boise State sure is getting screwed with their move to the MWC. First Utah leaves for the Pac-10 right after they join, and now it looks like BYU is going to be independent in football and join the WAC (Boise State's old conference) in everything else. Now Boise is playing in a conference that isn't that much better than the one they were in before, they aren't guaranteed to win the conference every year like before, and the other teams in their conference are farther away. I bet Boise wishes they could change their mind and stay in the WAC.

Since it looks like conference expansion is temporarily done, and since the Big XII looks like it is still likely to fail in the not-too-distant future, this is probably a very good move for BYU. It allows them to play a more region slate of games in the rest of their sports and allows them to schedule tougher national competition in football, which will help with recruiting and establishing themselves as a national power. My guess is that the school sees this as temporary move until conferences expand and change again in a few years. They are basically setting themselves up to be invited to one of the major conference down the road.
Aug 18, 2010 12:03pm
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jordo212000

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Aug 18, 2010 12:23 PM
Looks like the hope of the Mtn West depends on stealing some of the better WAC teams away. That way the conference is more competitive and it also attempts to screw BYU one more time
Aug 18, 2010 12:23pm
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enigmaax

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Aug 18, 2010 1:14 PM
jordo212000;455051 wrote:Looks like the hope of the Mtn West depends on stealing some of the better WAC teams away. That way the conference is more competitive and it also attempts to screw BYU one more time

It'll be interesting to see if there are any moves here. Remember that the Mountain West split off from the WAC originally and it greatly reduced the WAC's viability. Then they stole Boise State. Now, are the remaining schools willing to just suck it up and grab a spot if they can? Or will they stick together since the Mountain West has burned them a few times already? And if the Mountain West does pull in a couple more WAC teams, what becomes of the remaining teams (an even more watered down, watered down conference)?
Aug 18, 2010 1:14pm
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sjmvsfscs08

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Aug 18, 2010 2:26 PM
Good move on BYU's part. This also lets them set up a schedule conducive to going undefeated and earning a BCS bid.
Aug 18, 2010 2:26pm
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grodt

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Aug 18, 2010 3:40 PM
The only way they do it is if they can get BCS Auto Qualifier rules similar to Notre Dame (Auto Bid into BCS with 9 W's and Top 8 finish in BCS polls). Navy and Army (the other independents) have to finish in the Top 2
Aug 18, 2010 3:40pm
krambman's avatar

krambman

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Aug 18, 2010 4:51 PM
grodt;455242 wrote:The only way they do it is if they can get BCS Auto Qualifier rules similar to Notre Dame (Auto Bid into BCS with 9 W's and Top 8 finish in BCS polls). Navy and Army (the other independents) have to finish in the Top 2

Wrong. The other independents have to finish in the top 2 to automatically qualify for a BCS bowl, but any BCS bowl could choose them as an at-large if they finish in the top 14. If BYU got a BCS guarantee it wouldn't be like Notre Dame's guarantee, it would have to be similar to what non-AQ conferences get (finish in the top 4 and finish as the highest rated non-AQ school). They would also have some guaranteed money from the BCS (as it stands right now, there is a chunk of money given to the non-AQ conferences by the BCS every year which they then divide among the schools.
Aug 18, 2010 4:51pm
grodt's avatar

grodt

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Aug 18, 2010 7:32 PM
krambman;455302 wrote:Wrong. The other independents have to finish in the top 2 to automatically qualify for a BCS bowl, but any BCS bowl could choose them as an at-large if they finish in the top 14. If BYU got a BCS guarantee it wouldn't be like Notre Dame's guarantee, it would have to be similar to what non-AQ conferences get (finish in the top 4 and finish as the highest rated non-AQ school). They would also have some guaranteed money from the BCS (as it stands right now, there is a chunk of money given to the non-AQ conferences by the BCS every year which they then divide among the schools.

That's pretty much what I said. I never said Army and Navy couldn't be choosen outside of the Top-2, that's just their auto-qualifier.

Notre Dame's automatic qualifier is finish in the Top-8 in the BCS standings (and win 9 games) and they're in. The automatic qualifying conditions for Non-BCS schools is
3. The champion of Conference USA, the Mid-American Conference, the Mountain West Conference, the Sun Belt Conference, or the Western Athletic Conference will earn an automatic berth in a BCS bowl game if either:

A. Such team is ranked in the top 12 of the final BCS Standings, or,
B. Such team is ranked in the top 16 of the final BCS Standings and its ranking in the final BCS Standings is higher than that of a champion of a conference that has an annual automatic berth in one of the BCS bowls.
That would mean their deal is better then Notre Dame's, which I don't see happening.
Aug 18, 2010 7:32pm
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enigmaax

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Aug 18, 2010 8:04 PM
grodt;455426 wrote:That's pretty much what I said. I never said Army and Navy couldn't be choosen outside of the Top-2, that's just their auto-qualifier.

Notre Dame's automatic qualifier is finish in the Top-8 in the BCS standings (and win 9 games) and they're in. The automatic qualifying conditions for Non-BCS schools is



That would mean their deal is better then Notre Dame's, which I don't see happening.

I'm going to guess that the non-AQ conference line is going to be amended to read "champion of .... or BYU will earn an automatic berth..." and there would be a minimal guaranteed payout otherwise. On the surface, that looks like a better deal than ND, but it really still keeps BYU grouped with the non-AQ conferences and ND is still separate.
Aug 18, 2010 8:04pm
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MontyBrunswick

Aug 19, 2010 2:29 AM
sjmvsfscs08;455160 wrote:Good move on BYU's part. This also lets them set up a schedule conducive to going undefeated and earning a BCS bid.

Yeah. Notre Lame sure plays an awesome schedule year in and year out.

/sarcasm
Aug 19, 2010 2:29am
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darbypitcher22

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Aug 19, 2010 11:20 AM
interesting to see how this might play out. I'm sure for them to get the same treatment as Notre Dame in the BCS they're going to have to prove that they're going to go play some people
Aug 19, 2010 11:20am
redfalcon's avatar

redfalcon

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Aug 19, 2010 11:28 PM
Here is the cold hard truth about byu:

They are good. They are very, very good, and every once in a while, they are great. The bottom line, though, is that they are the mormon school and that is 99 percent of their recruiting right there. Byu is literally a wing of the church, and every mormon wants to go there. It doesn't matter how good they are the year before, because very few non mormons want to play there.

Because of this, moving up or down a conference or going independent will not effect their quality of play much at all. Also, notre dame was a powerhouse right from the beginning. Byu has won just one national championship and it was in the 80s. By these standards, it would be the same as clemson trying to go independent. It is a horrible idea.
Aug 19, 2010 11:28pm
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gerb131

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Aug 19, 2010 11:32 PM
BYU should play in a 25 and older league anyways.
Aug 19, 2010 11:32pm
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sjmvsfscs08

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Aug 20, 2010 12:33 AM
dlazz;455853 wrote:Yeah. Notre Lame sure plays an awesome schedule year in and year out.

/sarcasm

You're a dumbass.
Aug 20, 2010 12:33am
redfalcon's avatar

redfalcon

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Aug 24, 2010 11:53 PM
Notre Dame hasn't had a decent schedule in a while. They play USC every year, but thats about it, and even this year, USC isn;t going to be strong.
Aug 24, 2010 11:53pm
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sjmvsfscs08

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Aug 25, 2010 12:28 AM
redfalcon;461098 wrote:Notre Dame hasn't had a decent schedule in a while. They play USC every year, but thats about it, and even this year, USC isn;t going to be strong.

Please define "decent."
Aug 25, 2010 12:28am
redfalcon's avatar

redfalcon

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Aug 25, 2010 9:33 PM
Going Ourely off of the preseason and final rankings from the AP poll...

2010 Currently1 team ranked (AP)
Sept. 4 PURDUE
Sept. 11 MICHIGAN
Sept. 18 at Michigan State
Sept. 25 STANFORD
Oct. 2 at Boston College
Oct. 9 PITTSBURGH
Oct. 16 WESTERN MICHIGAN
Oct. 23 at Navy (at Meadowlands - East Rutherford, N.J.)
Oct. 30 TULSA
Nov. 6 Open Date
Nov. 13 UTAH
Nov. 20 ARMY (at Yankee Stadium - Bronx, N.Y.)
Nov. 27 at USC

2009 Pre season, 1 ranked team (USC), postseason, 1 ranked team (again USC)

2008, pre season, 1 ranked (USC)post season, 2 ranked (michigan state, USC)

2007 was really good. Penn State, Michigan, Michigan State, Boston College, USC, UCLA, Purdue, Georgia Tech, Navy, and a couple of scrubs.


I guess what I am saying is once you take out USC (which they have to play every year, or according to tradition), they have only played on other ranked opponent since that 2007 season. I am really not trying to trash ND, but they have had a few down years in terms of scheduling. Part of that is due to the fact that Boston College and Michigan are down, but it doesn't exactly help them.
Aug 25, 2010 9:33pm
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sjmvsfscs08

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Aug 25, 2010 10:58 PM
Well arguing schedules is so dumb I don't even know where to begin. But here's me playing devil's advocate to yours:

1) You skewing stats to fit your argument, common confirmation bias. In the 2009 final AP Poll alone, Notre Dame played #15 Pittsburgh, #22 Southern Cal, #28 Navy, #29 Stanford, and #35 Connecticut. Yes, I'm saying you ignored the quality teams in the "others receiving votes."

2) Take away the best team on anyone's schedule and no one's looks terrific unless you're in the SEC.

3) Notre Dame's schedule strength is typically in the average strength of its opponents. They won't play a #3 and then three #100 teams and repeat, they play teams most every week between #15-40. I guess they view it as a different kind of strength.

4) They are scheduled to far in advance you really have no idea, so it's moot. Right now, 2012 looks unbearable, but we just don't know.
Aug 25, 2010 10:58pm
redfalcon's avatar

redfalcon

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Aug 26, 2010 12:39 AM
#1-yeah, I only looked a ranked teams, and that is pretty standard. #35 gets like 4 votes. I wouldn;t call that Quality, although I did miss Pitt, sorry.

#2-Or if your in the Big 12 or if you are in the big ten or hell even if you are the Mountain West. TCU, Utah, and BYU provide more top #25 teams than any of the recent ND schedules. The Big Ten has 4 teams in the top 15. Not to start the whole conference issue...

#3-I'm not expecting anyone to go out and play #1-#12 in one season, but seriously, even you can see that the 08, 09 and 10 schedules are much weaker than 2007 and other previous schedules

#4-completely legit, totally agree.
Aug 26, 2010 12:39am
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krambman

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Aug 26, 2010 9:28 AM
I would argue that Notre Dame's schedule looks pretty close to a typical schedule for a team in a BCS conference. They play seven schools from BCS conferences, plus Utah who is soon to be in a BCS conference, and Navy who has been a perrenial bowl team. Is it the most rigorous schedule they've ever played? Nope, probably one of their easier schedules in recent years, but it's not like they're playing all MAC schools. It looks like a slightly easier BCS conference schedule, only backwards (their conference schedule, ie. BCS schools, are at the front of their schedule and their cupcakes are at the end).

Also, redfalcon, what AP Poll were you looking at, because there are definitely two ranked team's on ND's schedule right now (#14 USC and #15 Pitt), and two others receiving votes.
Aug 26, 2010 9:28am
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Sykotyk

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Aug 26, 2010 2:38 PM
Ranking beyond #25 is fraught with errors.

What if all 60 voters thought Toledo was the 26th best team in their ranking. But, they never got on a ballot. But, one team that everyone thought would be roughly the 50th best team got a #25 vote by one local guy.

Suddenly, they're better than the #26th?

They should rank all 120 I-FBS teams and then note who the 'current top 25' are, while still having ranked all the teams. Otherwise, they should just stop posting the 'honorable mention' list as it's not anywhere close to precise.

In addition, if a team is ranked #1, they're 25x better than an unranked team. While #25 is only 1x better than an unranked team. Meanwhile, getting omitted from one ballot can greatly lower your numbers. #1 should be 120x better than #120. #25 should be 95x better than #120, etc (based solely on poll position).

The other problem is gradation in pollsters. Team A and Team B are a numerical dead heat for a pollster. But, they have to rank one higher than another. So, they put A #2 and B #3. Even though, if they were to weight the teams, on a scale of 1-120 (120 being best, would put A at 118.6 and B at 118.4).

The fact we use 'rank' rather than 'rating' to determine placement for such things as national championship games or even conference titles is beyond incomprehensible as rankings were never to be more than to sell newspapers.

Sykotyk
Aug 26, 2010 2:38pm
redfalcon's avatar

redfalcon

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Aug 26, 2010 8:31 PM
krambman;462289 wrote:I would argue that Notre Dame's schedule looks pretty close to a typical schedule for a team in a BCS conference. They play seven schools from BCS conferences, plus Utah who is soon to be in a BCS conference, and Navy who has been a perrenial bowl team. Is it the most rigorous schedule they've ever played? Nope, probably one of their easier schedules in recent years, but it's not like they're playing all MAC schools. It looks like a slightly easier BCS conference schedule, only backwards (their conference schedule, ie. BCS schools, are at the front of their schedule and their cupcakes are at the end).

Also, redfalcon, what AP Poll were you looking at, because there are definitely two ranked team's on ND's schedule right now (#14 USC and #15 Pitt), and two others receiving votes.


Check my above post. I already said I missed Pitt.

Also, all I said was they haven't had a decent schedule, no that they had a horrible schedule. Just like you said, this is one of their weaker schedules, thats all.
Aug 26, 2010 8:31pm