SportsAndLady
Posts: 35,632
May 18, 2010 4:14pm
Thomas Hobbes vs. Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Which philosopher do you believe?
Do you believe humans are born with a "bad" instinct
or
Do you think they inherit these "bad" traits through society?
Which philosopher do you believe?
Do you believe humans are born with a "bad" instinct
or
Do you think they inherit these "bad" traits through society?
gorocks99
Posts: 10,760
May 18, 2010 4:16pm
Hobbes. We're born with instincts that are neither bad nor good, but society has deemed them as such.
hasbeen
Posts: 6,504
May 18, 2010 4:21pm
It's both, as is most cases when comparing two polar opposites.
Society causes us to have a "chip on the shoulder," but we are also born with instincts that react to society.
Society causes us to have a "chip on the shoulder," but we are also born with instincts that react to society.
gorocks99
Posts: 10,760
May 18, 2010 4:27pm
Is the instinct of reacting to society necessarily, inherently, good or bad? Or, are the values constructed by society good and bad?
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mattinctown
May 18, 2010 4:29pm
Inherit through society
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bamagirl
Posts: 154
May 18, 2010 4:36pm
I am a Psychology Major...so I am not even going to begin to discuss my opinions. haha
I
I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
May 18, 2010 4:37pm
gorocks99 wrote: Hobbes. We're born with instincts that are neither bad nor good, but society has deemed them as such.
hasbeen
Posts: 6,504
May 18, 2010 4:40pm
Okay, I definitely agree with this.gorocks99 wrote: Is the instinct of reacting to society necessarily, inherently, good or bad? Or, are the values constructed by society good and bad?
Then we can argue if there is an instinct to kill, rob, etc. I'm not sure where I stand on that.
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I Wear Pants
Posts: 16,223
May 18, 2010 4:48pm
Not an instinct to do those particular actions but to do whatever it takes to survive/thrive. Which sometimes is seen to be killing, robbing, etc.
hasbeen
Posts: 6,504
May 18, 2010 4:50pm
I think there are some people who have an instinct to kill. There are people don't kill to survive, they kill because they have blood lust.I Wear Pants wrote: Not an instinct to do those particular actions but to do whatever it takes to survive/thrive. Which sometimes is seen to be killing, robbing, etc.
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gut
Posts: 15,058
May 18, 2010 4:51pm
Learned behaviors. Society has incentives and disincentives for all types of behavior and like any animal humans react to those incentives.
Concepts like sharing and compassion I don't believe are instinctual and would also be among the first "good" behaviors to go when society/law breaks down.
That said, higher orders of animals organize and have a heirarchy and extended families, so you could make arguments that sharing and compassion ARE instinctual, to a degree, because grouping and group dynamics are instinctual to a degree.
Concepts like sharing and compassion I don't believe are instinctual and would also be among the first "good" behaviors to go when society/law breaks down.
That said, higher orders of animals organize and have a heirarchy and extended families, so you could make arguments that sharing and compassion ARE instinctual, to a degree, because grouping and group dynamics are instinctual to a degree.
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gut
Posts: 15,058
May 18, 2010 4:54pm
I don't think murder is an instinct. I'm not aware of animals who instinctually fight to the death.
FatHobbit
Posts: 8,651
May 18, 2010 11:58pm
All people are different. It's a mistake to try to make general statements that encompass everyone.
3reppom
Posts: 765
May 19, 2010 4:21am
Murder is a societal construct. the act of killing is an amoral act. Man A shoots and kills man B. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say yes. Change the circumstances and say that man A shot and killed man B because man B threatened the wife and children of man A. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say no.gut wrote: I don't think murder is an instinct. I'm not aware of animals who instinctually fight to the death.
ernest_t_bass
Posts: 24,984
May 19, 2010 6:37am
Yes
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jmog
Posts: 6,567
May 19, 2010 9:03am
Inherently "bad" and have to choose to be good.
ernest_t_bass
Posts: 24,984
May 19, 2010 9:06am
I'm actually with those that say we just have the instincts. Society says they're bad.
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gut
Posts: 15,058
May 19, 2010 9:13am
I'm not talking about the morality of it. Killing in self-defense is natural. Senseless killing is not. Morality is a human construct. Useless murder does not exist naturally in the animal kingdom, although there may are probably a few examples.3reppom wrote:Murder is a societal construct. the act of killing is an amoral act. Man A shoots and kills man B. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say yes. Change the circumstances and say that man A shot and killed man B because man B threatened the wife and children of man A. Is that act in and of itself wrong? most people would say no.gut wrote: I don't think murder is an instinct. I'm not aware of animals who instinctually fight to the death.
ernest_t_bass
Posts: 24,984
May 19, 2010 9:19am
There are plenty of species that kill one another. There are animal species who kill their young if they are unfitting. There is a species where, if they only have one baby, will either kill it or abandon it b/c they desire to have litters.
Some species will even sell their young for beer.
Some species will even sell their young for beer.
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cbus4life
Posts: 2,849
May 19, 2010 9:45am
Rousseau
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gut
Posts: 15,058
May 19, 2010 10:26am
But not for any reason that can't be explained by Darwin. Murder, except in self-defense, is not natural. That's why dogs and chickens have to be trained to fight to the death.ernest_t_bass wrote: There are plenty of species that kill one another.
Maybe you can make the argument that getting those wires crossed is a naturally unnatural occurrence. A homicidal animal probably won't live long enough to be observed in the wild. I suppose I can buy that.
ernest_t_bass
Posts: 24,984
May 19, 2010 10:52am
There are reasons behind every murder. Psychological, etc. There are reasons.
I don't think there are many (if any) murders that go:
#1 - "Hey, how you doing?"
#2 - "Good, how are you?"
#1 - "Fine... whack! Haha, you're dead!"
#2 - "WTF?"
There is explanation behind everything. With humans, I think it is chemical, or perhaps divine. You throw emotions in there too. Jealousy. There are explanations.
I don't think there are many (if any) murders that go:
#1 - "Hey, how you doing?"
#2 - "Good, how are you?"
#1 - "Fine... whack! Haha, you're dead!"
#2 - "WTF?"
There is explanation behind everything. With humans, I think it is chemical, or perhaps divine. You throw emotions in there too. Jealousy. There are explanations.
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gut
Posts: 15,058
May 19, 2010 11:27am
But that's not natural or instinctual, it's a learned behavior, generally speaking. Chemical imbalance, maybe, could be considered "naturally unnatural".ernest_t_bass wrote: There is explanation behind everything. With humans, I think it is chemical, or perhaps divine. You throw emotions in there too. Jealousy. There are explanations.
Killing your own kind is simply not natural or instinctual. In the animal kingdom, it's exclusively related to defense or survival. They don't fight to the death and you don't see two otherwise "friendly" lions just randomly go off and try to kill the other.
ernest_t_bass
Posts: 24,984
May 19, 2010 11:32am
Mothers killing there young b/c they only had ONE and wanted a litter is neither "defense or survival."
FatHobbit
Posts: 8,651
May 19, 2010 11:35am
If you skip past the abortion stuff, there is a bit of info about animals that kill their own kind. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Wild-Animals-705/Animals-kill-young.htmgut wrote:But that's not natural or instinctual, it's a learned behavior, generally speaking. Chemical imbalance, maybe, could be considered "naturally unnatural".ernest_t_bass wrote: There is explanation behind everything. With humans, I think it is chemical, or perhaps divine. You throw emotions in there too. Jealousy. There are explanations.
Killing your own kind is simply not natural or instinctual. In the animal kingdom, it's exclusively related to defense or survival. They don't fight to the death and you don't see two otherwise "friendly" lions just randomly go off and try to kill the other.