The point of asking you to imagine replacing God w/ Allah was to show you what people who don't believe in ANY god feel like when they have to pay respect to a god they don't believe in or in some cases don't particularly like, even though they love their country....

Or think of it as if you Christians had to say something along the lines of "one nation, where we are finally free of the limitations of a modern, useless God and no longer have to pretend to have faith when we pay respect to the flag, just so we can be seen as morally upright and get votes if we ever run for president"...

Pretend atheists ran the country....would you be okay with having to denounce God every morning instead of recognizing it??? Or would you just not stand for the pledge???

eersandbeers wrote:

majorspark wrote:
What law has congress made that establishes a national religion or prohibits the free practice of ones religion? Answer is none. They divert to the unconstitutional use of the judicial branch to prohibit the free exercise of religion. There by establishing the national religion to be atheism by judical fiat.

I am offended by some of the crap that is in my kids text books. Should I sue to have a federal judge remove this offensive material and force it nationally on all other local school districts or should I take my objections to my local school board. And if they and the voters disagree I have the freedom to send my child to another school district. That my friend is true freedom.

It is not just about establishing a national religion. It is about giving preference of one religion over another.

No its a matter of law.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Not only can congress not make a law establishing a religion. They can't make one prohibiting the free exercise of religion. So tell me now how the federal government can regulate the exercise of religion in a local school district. Can they also regulate what is printed in a school newspaper? Can the federal government regulate equal views on issues presented in said school newspapers? Should I sue my local school district for printing a political view contrary to my own views?

Read the 1st amendment again. It treats the freedom of religion, speech, press, peaceable assembley, and redress of grievances equally. Congress has no authority to legislate on the aformentioned matters.

eersandbeers wrote: If you feel your rights are being violated you have every right to sue the schools.

So because congress has no authority to legislate on these matters you are asking me to petition the courts to bypass the constitution and force my opionion on the matters being discussed on the nation by establishing law by judicial fiat? No thank you. That is not freedom. The courts are to interpret existing law not make it.

eersandbeers wrote:

majorspark wrote: No mention of God does not cater to atheists? It respects the rights of everyone? No it does not. It only respects the rights of those who believe a certain way.

No it does not cater to atheists in any way. That is a very bad argument. It's promoting a secular document with no mention of any religion of any type. It would cater to atheists if they said "One nation under no god."

The constitution can be argued to be a secular document. But no one can argue that it prohibits the federal govenment from having any say in the religious practices of its citizens. Public or private.

BRF wrote: BRF shout out to HitsRus!

When I have a student who doesn't stand for the Pledge, I call their parents. That USUALLY takes care of the problem.

BRF says that EVERYBODY should stand for the Pledge.

And if you don't, watch out for the exercise of First Amendment freedom of expression in response!!!

Amen.

There is a difference between supporting something and respecting something. If you don't like something, you're in the right country; protest it, petition it, do your part to change it. But even if you don't like it, you should damn sure respect it. If the words "under God" really offend you that much, then don't say it. But sitting down is a complete disrespect to the flag all the people that it symbolizes. The FLAG IS NOT ABOUT GOD OR RELIGION. It is a symbol of the freedom of this country, seperate from religion. If you have a problem with God, then don't say the pledge, but stand up for it, without reciting it. Sitting down is basically saying that you have no respect for the freedom that MILLIONS of American men and women who came before you, presently, and in the future have died to give you. And if you can't respect that, then you need to get the hell out, because you're the problem with this country. If you have that little of respect for your fellow Americans, especially the soldiers that have done EVERYTHING for this country, then go move to China or Russia, or better yet, North Korea and see how much they care about what your dumb ass "wants" to do and what it doesn't want to do. If you can't respect how we got here, and take 2 minutes of your day to get your lazy ass up and show some respect, then you DON'T DESERVE all the priviledges and bounty we enjoy in our nation.

Also, I know many people who are atheists and who still understand and respect our flag. Not everything is centered around religion, just because it was made in more religious time than today. (Oh, and btw, our country was FOUNDED by religious radicals who came to America looking for refuge, so if you're going to bitch about religion in this country, maybe take a look at your ancestors, since they're the same as mine basically )

eers, A delegate or two at the Convention may have had that concern - we don't know specifically what every single member was thinking about this topic - but the reason that language was put in the 1st amendment and agreed to by most was the Church of England. If displays weren't allowed in a public square or the 10 commandments couldn't be posted in a historical way in federal buildings, none of the states would have approved the amendment or entered into the Union if that was a clause to it.

Red_Skin_Pride wrote:

BRF wrote: BRF shout out to HitsRus!

When I have a student who doesn't stand for the Pledge, I call their parents. That USUALLY takes care of the problem.

BRF says that EVERYBODY should stand for the Pledge.

And if you don't, watch out for the exercise of First Amendment freedom of expression in response!!!

Amen.

There is a difference between supporting something and respecting something. If you don't like something, you're in the right country; protest it, petition it, do your part to change it. But even if you don't like it, you should damn sure respect it. If the words "under God" really offend you that much, then don't say it. But sitting down is a complete disrespect to the flag all the people that it symbolizes. The FLAG IS NOT ABOUT GOD OR RELIGION. It is a symbol of the freedom of this country, seperate from religion. If you have a problem with God, then don't say the pledge, but stand up for it, without reciting it. Sitting down is basically saying that you have no respect for the freedom that MILLIONS of American men and women who came before you, presently, and in the future have died to give you. And if you can't respect that, then you need to get the hell out, because you're the problem with this country. If you have that little of respect for your fellow Americans, especially the soldiers that have done EVERYTHING for this country, then go move to China or Russia, or better yet, North Korea and see how much they care about what your dumb ass "wants" to do and what it doesn't want to do. If you can't respect how we got here, and take 2 minutes of your day to get your lazy ass up and show some respect, then you DON'T DESERVE all the priviledges and bounty we enjoy in our nation.

Also, I know many people who are atheists and who still understand and respect our flag. Not everything is centered around religion, just because it was made in more religious time than today. (Oh, and btw, our country was FOUNDED by religious radicals who came to America looking for refuge, so if you're going to bitch about religion in this country, maybe take a look at your ancestors, since they're the same as mine basically )

There is little freedom in this country. You only think there is. Standing and giving a pledge to a flag is nationalism similar to the nazi regimes.

You can respect your country without bowing to nationalism.

BRF, do ask why the child doesn't want to stand for the pledge before calling his parents or is it just absolute tyranny in your classroom....

They'd have loved you in Germany around 1935....Nazi youth, Baby!!!!!

If it were me I'd ask him/her why they don't want to stand....If it has to do w/ the God thing, then tell them they can still respect the flag and your country while overlooking the God thing, as the pledge is about much more than anything religious and that is but a minor part of the Pledge. Then explain to them that it's totally w/in their right to not stand, if they still feel strongly about it.

For whatever reason most adults can't be mature when it comes to dealing with the opinions and feelings of children. Children have no rights, b/c they're so easy to control, right??? Just call mom and dad and teacher gets her way....

BCSbunk wrote:There is little freedom in this country. You only think there is. Standing and giving a pledge to a flag is nationalism similar to the nazi regimes.
You can respect your country without bowing to nationalism.

Would that be similar to:
"You can respect foreign leaders without bowing to them" ?

Or can it be said that:

"It's just a matter of protocol to say the Pledge" ?

CenterBHSFan wrote:

BCSbunk wrote:There is little freedom in this country. You only think there is. Standing and giving a pledge to a flag is nationalism similar to the nazi regimes.
You can respect your country without bowing to nationalism.

Would that be similar to:
"You can respect foreign leaders without bowing to them" ?

Or can it be said that:

"It's just a matter of protocol to say the Pledge" ?

What exactly does you can respect foreign leaders without bowing to them have to do with you can respect your country without reciting a pledge? Same with the other question?

How are they related to one another?

I don't think they are....BHS just wanted to get a dig in at the pres. at this point,, for some reason...:huh:

bunk,

Actually the first one doesn't have anything really to do with this. Your words just happened to be serendipitous to be at the right place at the right time.
The second quote actually bears better to the topic at hand. To me, I see saying the Pledge as a sort of honorary protocol thing, and not a hypnotizing mind-control thing.

Alltogether, I was sort of putting my two cents in on several different threads. It wasn't meant to be sarcastic to anyONE in particular, and certainly not directed as darts at you. Merely a display at how some words can be used as answers for different questions.
.........

Young lad,

I don't like to get in digs toward the President. Usually I take the time to launch a full-on criticism. Full on complaints instead of digs is much better, IMHO.

BigApple,

If you're keeping up on this thread, you can plainly see the references to "Nazi" that I was talking about in another thread with you, when we were discussing how the democrats are now eating all who do not toe the party line.

Forcing kids to do something they don't wanna do and denying their rights to ideas of their own, especially when it comes to this smacks of facism. Sorry.

Strapping Young Lad: In nearly every incident I have been involved with on this, it's a strapping young lad who is trying to show that he is a "tough guy" and nobody tells him what to do.

In my book, the parents are the boss.

Nearly always, they are not happy with their strapping young lad for not standing and the "problem" is solved. A few times, they have said that it is OK with them. And when that happens, it is OK with me (well, not really, but I respect their rights!).

One time a sophomore didn't stand and I asked him why? (see, I DO ask) He said his leg hurt. I went into a lecture about how we have soldiers in Iraq sleeping in holes in the desert. And your leg hurts? YOUR LEG HURTS?!! Two years later he joined the army.

And I'm not a Nazi.

Cool. So what's everyone's stink about kids not standing, when they are in protest???

Strapping Young Lad wrote: Forcing kids to do something they don't wanna do and denying their rights to ideas of their own, especially when it comes to this smacks of facism. Sorry.

Yeah, I know.

Fortunately, we live in America. Kids who don't want to stand and/or say the Pledge do not:

- get sent to concentration camps
- get exiled
- get fined
- get jailed
- get killed

Like so many kids who lived during Nazi Germany did.

Yeah. The comparison is CLEAR!
Why didn't I see it before?
:rolleyes:

BRF wrote: Strapping Young Lad: In nearly every incident I have been involved with on this, it's a strapping young lad who is trying to show that he is a "tough guy" and nobody tells him what to do.

In my book, the parents are the boss.

Nearly always, they are not happy with their strapping young lad for not standing and the "problem" is solved. A few times, they have said that it is OK with them. And when that happens, it is OK with me (well, not really, but I respect their rights!).

One time a sophomore didn't stand and I asked him why? (see, I DO ask) He said his leg hurt. I went into a lecture about how we have soldiers in Iraq sleeping in holes in the desert. And your leg hurts? YOUR LEG HURTS?!! Two years later he joined the army.

And I'm not a Nazi.

Well the parents do have some say. As I stated earlier in the thread my daughter a sophomore does not stand for the pledge. Her teacher asked why and she told him. He accepted her answer. She told me she had hesitations about standing for the pledge. I support her decision.

For those that believe they should be forced, that does reek of fascism. This country stood proud for many years without a pledge and would be great now without a pledge.

A pledge is nationalistic and unnecessary for the betterment of the people or the country.

CenterBHSFan wrote:

Strapping Young Lad wrote: Forcing kids to do something they don't wanna do and denying their rights to ideas of their own, especially when it comes to this smacks of facism. Sorry.

Yeah, I know.

Fortunately, we live in America. Kids who don't want to stand and/or say the Pledge do not:

- get sent to concentration camps
- get exiled
- get fined
- get jailed
- get killed

Like so many kids who lived during Nazi Germany did.

Yeah. The comparison is CLEAR!
Why didn't I see it before?
:rolleyes:

Facism doesn't inherently involve concentration camps etc.....

Not giving individuals their due rights on whether or not they want to stand for the Pledge, is involved however.

If you don't like people having the freedom to sit, maybe you aren't as American as you think....

Maybe they aren't sent to concentration camps, but punished by having their parents called.

I'll just never understand people who want to force their will on individuals....What do you get out of it????

Strapping Young Lad wrote: Facism doesn't inherently involve concentration camps etc.....
Not giving individuals their due rights on whether or not they want to stand for the Pledge, is involved however.
If you don't like people having the freedom to sit, maybe you aren't as American as you think....
Maybe they aren't sent to concentration camps, but punished by having their parents called.

Actually, I think you should probably go back and reread my posts. I've never said that students should be "forced" to say the Pledge.
Personally, I say the Pledge with the words "Under God". If somebody else doesn't want to, fine - just don't try to bother me when I say it.
Also, I believe it was you (and some others) who brought up "Nazi". Not me. Hence, the example of concentration camps.
*EDIT

maybe you aren't as American as you think....

You need to back off a little with this crap.

Who tries to bother you while your saying the Pledge???

I guess I struck a nerve.

Parents have "some" say...Pah! They have ALL the say!

CenterBHSFan wrote:
You need to back off a little with this crap.

Why do I need to back off with this. I hear conservative voices labeling others "un-American" plenty. But the fact is when our conservative patriots want to make sure everyone is made to stand for the pledge, they are going against fundamentals values of our country.

Because they are doing so in the name of country, it's perfectly okay.

In my opinion that is as un-American as it gets. There are plenty around the politcal forum that need to back off with their crap. What's one more...

Because your comment was directed towards me, in your answer to me.

Facism doesn't inherently involve concentration camps etc.....
Not giving individuals their due rights on whether or not they want to stand for the Pledge, is involved however.
If you don't like people having the freedom to sit, maybe you aren't as American as you think....Maybe they aren't sent to concentration camps, but punished by having their parents called.

Find where I said anything like you're generalizing and insinuating that I did, and you might have a case.
Here is what I said, but I will bold it in case you missed it from my last post.

If somebody else doesn't want to, fine

Now, where does that say that I don't like people having the freedom to sit? Go throw all my posts on this thread and find it, I will wait. Oh and while you're at it, find where I called anybody (or insinuated) on this thread "un-American". I will wait for that, too.

I wasn't saying you personally...I meant that if people in general have a problem w/ it. Tell me where I said YOU called people unAmerican. I said conservatives. I don't know what you are.

the only thing i singled you out on is when you said since people weren't sent to concentration camps it was nothing like facism....

BCSbunk wrote: There is little freedom in this country. You only think there is. Standing and giving a pledge to a flag is nationalism similar to the nazi regimes.

You can respect your country without bowing to nationalism.

its not similar, we dont pledge to Obama or the Democratic party.

the definition of Nationalism:
national spirit or aspirations. devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism.