I believe in God, but I am in favor of removing "under God" from the pledge. Also, I don't think anybody should be forced to stand when the Pledge of Allegiance is recited. I have always stood, and still do, for the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance and also the Star Spangled Banner(even put my hand over my heart), but do not believe anybody who wishes to not stand ought to be forced to stand.

To me, this is one of the great things about this country, that people can be at a public event/gathering where either the Pledge of Allegiance or National Anthem are recited/sung, and if they wish they can choose not to participate without fear of arrest or abuse from law enforcement and our government.

Under God was NOT part of the original Pledge of Allegiance when written in 1892. The "pledge" was officially endorsed by the US Government in 1942, and the phrase "under God" was not added until 1954.

So, from 1942-1954, the "Pledge" was officially endorsed by the US Government, and did NOT include the phrase "under God". :idea:


Little Known Facts in the Pledge of Allegiance / "Under God" Debate
http://undergod.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000065

dwccrew wrote:I think that it does. If people were slaves, would they be denied rights and hence, denied justice?

you are right, but gays and lesbians are not slaves and also technically not denied any rights. i dont believe there is a right to marriage.

also, its pretty clear in the first line "I pledge allegiance, to the FLAG of the united states of america". its not, I pledge allegiance, to GOD".

Glory Days wrote:

dwccrew wrote:I think that it does. If people were slaves, would they be denied rights and hence, denied justice?

you are right, but gays and lesbians are not slaves and also technically not denied any rights. i dont believe there is a right to marriage.

also, its pretty clear in the first line "I pledge allegiance, to the FLAG of the united states of america". its not, I pledge allegiance, to GOD".

Yes gays are denied liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

and i am not saying gays should or shouldnt be able to get married, just going along with what it is now.

I don't have any problem with someone refusing to say the pledge. They should leave the pledge as is and let everyone decide for themselves.

This argument gets old about the phrase that's Nowhere to be found in our Constitution.

People have a right to voice their displeasure in this country, even if it means not standing for the pledge, no matter how idiotic their reasons might be.

It's a free country. If you don't wanna stand don't.

WebFire wrote:

jmog wrote: Anybody has the right to not stand, whether its the pledge or the anthem. Does that mean I won't think they are retarded? Nope, still will think that, but at the same time believe they have the right to choose not to stand.

This. They have the right. But I would still think they are a dumbass.

Exactly, you have the right to think they are dumb just as much as they have the right not to stand, everyone goes on with their lives.

I think whoever decided to add "under God" to begin with is a dumbass, but I still stand and recite it.

Elliot Stabler wrote: I would not tolerate it.

If their religion doesn't forbid it...and they still chose to not stand up...I would give them detention,Saturday,etc...

You would give the student detention for exercising their rights? Hopefully you would get the school sued in the process.

unique_67 wrote: Under God was NOT part of the original Pledge of Allegiance when written in 1892. The "pledge" was officially endorsed by the US Government in 1942, and the phrase "under God" was not added until 1954.

So, from 1942-1954, the "Pledge" was officially endorsed by the US Government, and did NOT include the phrase "under God". :idea:


Little Known Facts in the Pledge of Allegiance / "Under God" Debate
http://undergod.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000065

It's funny how many people fail to realize this basic fact about the words "Under God."

I'm not a huge fan of the pledge anyways. Making kids say it every day seems more like an indoctrination technique than teaching them to respect their country.

Elliot Stabler wrote: I would not tolerate it.

If their religion doesn't forbid it...and they still chose to not stand up...I would give them detention,Saturday,etc...

And if you punished my child for this, you'd better contact your union's lawyer, because there would be a lawsuit coming.

There has already been established precedent on this. Mandating speech is just as unconstitutional as limiting speech.

(And for the record, I've never failed to stand and recite the pledge or sing the National Anthem in my life.)

eersandbeers wrote:

Elliot Stabler wrote: I would not tolerate it.

If their religion doesn't forbid it...and they still chose to not stand up...I would give them detention,Saturday,etc...

You would give the student detention for exercising their rights? Hopefully you would get the school sued in the process.

unique_67 wrote: Under God was NOT part of the original Pledge of Allegiance when written in 1892. The "pledge" was officially endorsed by the US Government in 1942, and the phrase "under God" was not added until 1954.

So, from 1942-1954, the "Pledge" was officially endorsed by the US Government, and did NOT include the phrase "under God". :idea:


Little Known Facts in the Pledge of Allegiance / "Under God" Debate
http://undergod.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000065

It's funny how many people fail to realize this basic fact about the words "Under God."

I'm not a huge fan of the pledge anyways. Making kids say it every day seems more like an indoctrination technique than teaching them to respect their country.

That is exactly what my daughter told her teacher when he asked why she would not stand for the pledge.

He repected that decision and he is former military as am I.

Yes precedent has been set regarding reciting the pledge.

Glory Days wrote:
you are right, but gays and lesbians are not slaves and also technically not denied any rights. i dont believe there is a right to marriage.

also, its pretty clear in the first line "I pledge allegiance, to the FLAG of the united states of america". its not, I pledge allegiance, to GOD".

I agree with you, I don't think it is a pledge to god.

Glory Days wrote: and i am not saying gays should or shouldnt be able to get married, just going along with what it is now.

As was stated by BCSbunk, gays are being denied the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If you "just go along with how it is", as you put it, you are accepting of that.

If people would have just gone along with how it was during slavery, the slaves may have not been freed when they were.

Now enslaving someone is much worse than denying someone the ability to get married, but they are still being denied.

Also, if you don't believe someone has the right to get married, why is every heterosexual couple allowed to get married, but when it comes to homosexual couples it is not allowed? They are being discriminated against and denied their right to the pursuit of happiness IMO.

Stupid people. Stupid enough to try to make a protest that really doesn't make any sense. But, it's a free country let them do as they please (at least it isn't violent)--I'll be the first one in line to wave goodbye if they'd like to leave though.

SQ_Crazies wrote: Stupid people. Stupid enough to try to make a protest that really doesn't make any sense. But, it's a free country let them do as they please (at least it isn't violent)--I'll be the first one in line to wave goodbye if they'd like to leave though.

They are showing dissent in order to try to achieve a political change. Why would they leave?

If they can't make a pledge to our country because it says our country is one, under God, then they can go somewhere else. If they have an issue with that, they can go live in Canada. I said they can stay, they don't have to say the pledge but if it bothers them that bad then head on out of here because a few morons sitting during the pledge won't get it changed. Especially when their protest doesn't even make sense.

They're being disrespectful to the ones who fought for their right to act like an idiot.

In this particular case, the teacher was violating the school districts own policy by reprimanding the student for not standing and reciting the "pledge". Hubbard school district has a policy requiring that ONLY faculty recite the "pledge" each morning, with students having the option to participate or not participate.

Student gives reasons for not standing during pledge
http://www.vindy.com/news/2009/nov/19/student-gives-reasons-for-not-standing-during/#comments

..."Westover said she had been written up and sent to the principal’s office multiple times for her refusal over the course of the past few weeks. The ACLU sent a letter requesting the school to stop requiring students to say the pledge.

Richard Buchenic, Hubbard schools superintendent, said the district has a policy which requires only teachers to recite the pledge in the morning. He added that students are not required to participate.

Buchenic said he spoke with the ACLU, and the matter had been “dealt with.”"...

SQ_Crazies wrote: If they can't make a pledge to our country because it says our country is one, under God, then they can go somewhere else. If they have an issue with that, they can go live in Canada. I said they can stay, they don't have to say the pledge but if it bothers them that bad then head on out of here because a few morons sitting during the pledge won't get it changed. Especially when their protest doesn't even make sense.

Actually it makes complete sense.

Bellamy was a Christian socialist who first printed the Pledge to promote order and obedience in a youth magazine. It is simply an indoctrination technique. It is doubtful the Founding Fathers would have supported such statism.

We aren't one nation under god. We are a secular country. There is a reason the words "under god" weren't added until 1951 when Christians decided to push it through and change the original meaning.

pooter wrote: They're being disrespectful to the ones who fought for their right to act like an idiot.

No, they aren't. In no way does not saying a pledge disrespect anybody.

I think it's a silly hill to choose to die on, no matter what "side" you're on.

I agree with eers. I posted a link with FACTS about the origins of the "Pledge". It was written in the late 1800's, by an individual who as a SOCIALIST and a Baptist Minister. The "Pledge" was not officially endorsed by the US Government until 1942, and the words "under God" were not added until 1954.

Also, the original "salute" used when saying the "Pledge" was an outstretched arm, but that was changed when that salute was adopted by the Nazi Party under Adolph Hitler.

If reciting the "Pledge" and having the words "under God" in such a "pledge" to the US flag was so important to the founding fathers and to the ability of this country to operate, then why did it take until the late 1800's for the "pledge" to be written, until 1942 for it to be officially endorsed by the US government and then until 1954 to have the phrase "under God" added?

I find it quite ironic that some of the people who are the most fervent about how important it is that the "pledge" be recited are people who claim to be staunch "conservatives", and against the "socialism" that is infiltrating the USA. And, some of those who are most adamant about an individuals right to refuse to participate are "liberals", who are supposedly responsible for having elected a "socialist" President. :huh: :huh:

And, forcing an individual or individuals to pledge their allegiance to a flag does NOT mean they will have any type of respect for the things that flag supposedly represents. Furthermore, it is a means by which the GOVERNMENT can attempt to control the thoughts and actions of the masses, and by having this "pledge" recited by young, impressionable children it can be an even greater tool of "indoctrination".

Little Known Facts in the Pledge of Allegiance / "Under God" Debate
http://undergod.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000065

1. The US Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, a Socialist and a Baptist minister. It read: "I Pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one nation indivisible, with liberty and Justice for all."

2."My flag" was replaced with "the flag of the United States of America" as a result of the National Flag conferences of 1923 and 1924.

3. The Pledge was officially endorsed by the US government in 1942.

4. The words "under God" were added to the Pledge on June 14, 1954.

5. Before December 1942 reciters saluted the flag in a straight arm salute. This arm motion was eliminated by Congress in its revised Flag Code during WWII because of the similarity to the Nazi salute.

6.Seven of seven national polls from 2002 to 2005 have shown over 65% support for keeping "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.

7. From 2001 to 2006 zero US senators publicly supported changing the Pledge of Allegiance.

Related Facts:
1. By 1702, all 13 of the original colonies had some form of state-sponsored religion. By 1868, every state religious requirement was removed or nullified.

2. As of Aug. 2006, the word "God" appeared in the US Code of Laws 68 times. 46 are references to "acts of God" and 22 mention "God" in other capacities.

3. "In God We Trust" became the official national motto on July 30, 1956 when President Dwight Eisenhower signed Joint Resolution P.L. 84-140 which had been passed without a recorded vote by the House and Senate Judiciary committees. The phrase "In God We Trust" had previously appeared on United States coins starting in 1864, and it was added to paper currency on Oct. 1, 1957.

4. All 50 state constitutions in the United States refer to "God" or some higher power (as of May 2005).

5. There are three different versions of the 10 Commandments (Catholic, Jewish, and Protestant) as well as a Muslim version of sorts.

6. Approximately 130 million Americans believe Earth's age to be about 6,000 years old.

you can say the pledge without reciting 'under God' if you find that distatstful. It is a matter of whether you love your country... warts and all. That's what being "united" is all about.

Hits,

To be honest, I do not love the United States. I feel fortunate to have been born in this country, but I don't have a "love" for this country. At the same time, I don't hate the USA either.

This is where I was born, this is where my family is, and while there are some other countries I think I would be as happy, or even happier, living in, all in all the best thing for me is to stay in this country and be thankful I wasn't born in a country such as Laos, Vietnam, Mexico, China, North Korea, Sudan, Iran....., etc.

HitsRus wrote: you can say the pledge without reciting 'under God' if you find that distatstful. It is a matter of whether you love your country... warts and all. That's what being "united" is all about.

I agree, Hits!!!