If your patriotism comes from standing during an authoritarian "pledge" then, I would say you don't truly understand what it is that makes America so great.

Strapping Young Lad wrote: So you asked them nothing about a person's right to choose whether or not they want to stand????

Of course that was brought up. Why don't you get off your assumption that I am a Nazi? It was an open discussion. Everybody gets their say.

Round and round and round we go.

BRF wrote:

Strapping Young Lad wrote: So you asked them nothing about a person's right to choose whether or not they want to stand????

Of course that was brought up. Why don't you get off your assumption that I am a Nazi?

Because Nancy Pelosi made that term popular!
No, seriously, that ^^^ was a joke!

I think that most of the people who have the same ideology as her (very, very liberal) ...well, it sort of has a trickle-down effect.
I also think that the younger you go on age levels, the more of a niggling effect the Pledge has on people. I think the debate on this forum shows a healthy slice of that pie.
I honestly do think that it annoys more younger people than older people. I mean, I could be wrong, but it IS my opinion.

The very conservative are Nazi's, the very liberal are Commies....
I don't consider myself either. I guess I'd say I'm socially liberal, but conservative on other issues. The less government or authority in general, the better. I'm also pro-life.

I know people love to put God's name everywhere, but I often wonder how Jesus would feel about having a reference to him on money. I don't think he'd like our lifestyle much in the United States and that's humorous to me....

As far as the pledge I stand out of tradition and I agree with ideal that the words paint, but it's just that, an ideal...Liberty and justice for all, except those people who don't want to stand for the Pledge.

Strapping Young Lad wrote: Hits,You are making broad generalizations on why a kid would choose what he does and what age they will do it....I doubt that kids of a young age would choose not to stand, but when they do if it is in protest of something then it's obviously time to discuss why they are, their rights, the consequences of their actions and what the POA stands for and then let them make their informed choice...

Seems you are one of the few still sticking to your narrow-minded authoritarian POV. I'm thankful you are the minority.

I'm the one making generalizations? I'm the one whose 'narrow minded'?


It wasn't me who said " The very conservative are Nazi's, the very liberal are Commies"

It wsn't me who said, " Is that because they'd probably recognize the right to not stand and recognize that the teacher is misusing his/her power by ordering them to stand in the hall???"


"For some reason ppl like Hits have put the wagon before the horse.....you think the saying of the Pledge is more important than the liberties we individuals are afforded by virtue of the fact that we live in a great country and we have fathers and grandfathers who fought and died to ensure we can CHOOSE for ourselves.... "

^^^no where did I ever say that. I am a firm believer in the rights of adult Americans to live free without encumberances of government. But nowhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights is it written that 12 year olds have the right to unlimited choice. If you think they do, you obviously haven't raised any. No way does a 12 year old 'reason ' a protest against the USA unless it is out of spite for authority or attention seeking behaviour....unless his parents put it there. As I said in an earlier post, if a child refuses to stand for the POA and it is a daily school function, then that child's parents get a phone call, and they and the teacher can decide what to do about it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting some reasonable conformity out of our youth. The country is not about narcissitic anarchy.

No way does a 12 year old 'reason ' a protest against the USA unless it is out of spite for authority or attention seeking behaviour....unless his parents put it there. As I said in an earlier post, if a child refuses to stand for the POA and it is a daily school function, then that child's parents get a phone call, and they and the teacher can decide what to do about it.

Well put.

It always seemed hypocritical to me. You're exercising your right to protest, granted under The Constitution. How can you exercise your "American right to protest," and not like America? It's like protesting McDonald's by pledging to "eat every last french fry in the store."

Lowellite wrote: It always seemed hypocritical to me. You're exercising your right to protest, granted under The Constitution. How can you exercise your "American right to protest," and not like America? It's like protesting McDonald's by pledging to "eat every last french fry in the store."

Hahaha!!! That's great! (and so true )

HITSRUS,

The nazi's, commies thing was in jest, obviously.

"Is it because they....stand in the hall???" sentence I wrote is a QUESTION, so it's hard to say that I'm making a generalization there.

And then you make the same generalization by claiming no way a 12 year old can reason what it means to protest..How the hell do you know that no twelve year old is that mature???? You don't know that. Maybe the twelve year olds you deal with aren't but there are pre-teen kids going to college. Now, that's rare obviously, but to generalize that NO twelve year old could understand what it means not to stand, other than being spiteful, is in fact a BROAD GENERALIZATION. You don't know every twelve year old and you are generalizing. That's the definition of the word....

It's hard to argue that you aren't making generalizations when you make a generalization in the same post...

It's not wrong to expect some reasonable conformity, but when, at whatever age, a child starts feeling compelled to ask questions, like 'why am I conforming if I don't beleive in this', or 'why am I conforming if this goes against the morals my parents have brought me up on' then it's time to address these feelings. Not just banish them to the hall and avoid the subject...

This is hardly giving a child FULL RIGHTS....

They have the right to not stand in my room as well, but they also get a verbal invitation to move out of the country. I don't force anyone to say it, but you do need to stand. If they have that big of a religious riot about it, then they are welcome to go to the office and talk to someone who cares about their point of view.

Buckeye2B wrote: They have the right to not stand in my room as well, but they also get a verbal invitation to move out of the country. I don't force anyone to say it, but you do need to stand. If they have that big of a religious riot about it, then they are welcome to go to the office and talk to someone who cares about their point of view.

Seriously?

Strongarm...

Freedom of speech/expression goes both ways.

Glory Days wrote: Freedom of speech/expression goes both ways.

Amen, brother, that's what I've been talking about. If you don't stand for the Pledge or the National Anthem.........then you can expect an earful.

Freedom of speech/expression.......isn't it a great thing?!

Buckeye2B is talking my language!

Round 50 coming up!

strapping wrote....
" 'why am I conforming if I don't beleive in this', or 'why am I conforming if this goes against the morals my parents have brought me up on' "

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands,
One nation, (under god optional) indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all."

What part of this does a 12 year old (or anybody for that matter) object to?
Is it the liberty and justice for all part?...or indivisiblity?

BRF wrote:

Glory Days wrote: Freedom of speech/expression goes both ways.

Amen, brother, that's what I've been talking about. If you don't stand for the Pledge or the National Anthem.........then you can expect an earful.

Freedom of speech/expression.......isn't it a great thing?!

There is a big difference in the way people are expressing though. If people choose not to participate in the POA or the National anthem, they are doing it silently, not getting in your face and telling you how they feel, as you claim they should expect.

still freedom of speech though. aslong as they arent threatening the person, they have the right to say what they want. isnt that what this is all about, the freedom? it doesnt say silent expression can only be met with more silent expression.

HitsRus wrote: strapping wrote....
" 'why am I conforming if I don't beleive in this', or 'why am I conforming if this goes against the morals my parents have brought me up on' "

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands,
One nation, (under god optional) indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all."

What part of this does a 12 year old (or anybody for that matter) object to?
Is it the liberty and justice for all part?...or indivisiblity?

Well, even a 12 year old can make the decision that the United States is not fullfilling the "liberty and justice" for all part, if that is his or her opinion.

And not standing can be a form of protest and calling attention to our not living up to that portion of the pledge.

Just like that kid who refused to stand because he believed that we weren't providing equal liberties and the like for homosexuals.

You might not agree with his line of reasoning, but i see it as perfectly legitimate that a rational, young adult could see that and not stand for it. And that is completely fine with me.

Fulfilling the creed of providing true liberty and justice for all is an ideology and very utopian in my mind. It's something I hope all would aspire towards. I support that by pledging my allegiance to a flag that represents a group of people striving towards such principles. We may not yet be there. We may never be there. I hope we never stopping trying to be.

cbus4life wrote:

HitsRus wrote: strapping wrote....
" 'why am I conforming if I don't beleive in this', or 'why am I conforming if this goes against the morals my parents have brought me up on' "

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands,
One nation, (under god optional) indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all."

What part of this does a 12 year old (or anybody for that matter) object to?
Is it the liberty and justice for all part?...or indivisiblity?

Well, even a 12 year old can make the decision that the United States is not fullfilling the "liberty and justice" for all part, if that is his or her opinion.

And not standing can be a form of protest and calling attention to our not living up to that portion of the pledge.

Just like that kid who refused to stand because he believed that we weren't providing equal liberties and the like for homosexuals.

You might not agree with his line of reasoning, but i see it as perfectly legitimate that a rational, young adult could see that and not stand for it. And that is completely fine with me.

Since when is a 12 year old a young adult though? give them 3 or 4 more years and some experience in highschool and i might be able to agree with you.

unique_67 wrote: Under God was NOT part of the original Pledge of Allegiance when written in 1892. The "pledge" was officially endorsed by the US Government in 1942, and the phrase "under God" was not added until 1954.

So, from 1942-1954, the "Pledge" was officially endorsed by the US Government, and did NOT include the phrase "under God". :idea:


Little Known Facts in the Pledge of Allegiance / "Under God" Debate
http://undergod.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=000065

Thank you for the link. Just wanted to bring this up again.

Separation of church and state.

Wonder why "under God" was added? Who added it?

Maybe people chose to say their own pledge instead of a government endorsed one...a pledge which included the words "under God".

Buckeye2B wrote: They have the right to not stand in my room as well, but they also get a verbal invitation to move out of the country. I don't force anyone to say it, but you do need to stand. If they have that big of a religious riot about it, then they are welcome to go to the office and talk to someone who cares about their point of view.

As a teacher, is this the schools position that you are telling your children that you are teaching or your own personal beliefs?

original_sin wrote:

Buckeye2B wrote: They have the right to not stand in my room as well, but they also get a verbal invitation to move out of the country. I don't force anyone to say it, but you do need to stand. If they have that big of a religious riot about it, then they are welcome to go to the office and talk to someone who cares about their point of view.

As a teacher, is this the schools position that you are telling your children that you are teaching or your own personal beliefs?

If you said that to my kid, i would be calling for your head. Ridiculous. Just as immature as the kids you're teaching.

uggh . Hits, how would I know what part a person (even a 12yr old OR LESS) would have with the pledge??? If you can't imagine that a person could be skeptical of 'liberty and justice for all' or 'God', maybe you need to pick up a history book, or a newspaper.

As far as freedom of speech going both ways, of course it does. If it makes you feel like a man or an American hero to invite someone who doesnt' do things YOUR way, to leave the country, that's your business.

Tht's the kind of mentality that I don't like...If you don't agree with me then you should leave the country.

In other words "you are not as American as I am!!!"...I have more right to this country than YOU.

Well, like i said before if you don't respect a persons right to protest, to choose not to say the POA, or a person's freedom of speech, perhaps it YOU who do not understand what it means to be American. It goes much further than the POA. You have to ACT like an American, not just mouth the words.

And sometimes that means giving a person the right to have their own opinions, even when those opinions don't agree with YOU. It's not all about YOU.