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Healthcare Passes 219-212

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M

Manhattan Buckeye

Senior Member

7,566 posts
Mar 21, 2010 11:47 AM
"Is that REALLY the America you want to see in the future? "

Well, if this passes, this is the future: Smoke. Overweight. Eat fast food. Drink to the point of abuse. Abuse drugs. Don't exercise...etc. Where is the problem?

Until this point that was a YP, not a MP. If this becomes a MP, I'm going to be very, very angry and very, very pissed at the folks that can't back themselves off of the dinner table. If healthcare is a national issue, it is my issue, forgive me for this but I am not agreeable for paying for the &$#%-ups of other lifestyles.
Mar 21, 2010 11:47am
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Mar 21, 2010 11:50 AM
Well then here we go. I was not out of context, since I was clearly posting about the signs and the notable quotable from Thomas Jefferson.

If you want to talk about prices of government, we can do that also. But, that wasn't my point.
I've said before that we needed to reign in our military spending. I've also said before that we also need to reign in our social spending.
I think we need to reign both of those spending sprees in EQUALLY. We just cannot afford it, obviously.

As for health insurance (what the topic is about) we are just robbing Peter to pay Paul already today. This bill is going to drastically and massively amplify that robbing/paying.
So.... do we pick the middle shell and hope for the best?
Or do we pick the left shell and hope we don't get caught?
Or mabe we just pick the right shell and cover up the results with one of the other two shells?
See what I mean?

We cannot continue to do this. Again, I don't care if people have protested 40 years ago, today or if they wait until two weeks from now to get angry about it. It matters not. What matters is that they are. People are shrugging off their complacency, and it's high time that they did.

I don't like the message that the Browning sign puts out, but it got my attention. (and yours and others)
And, I think that was the intent. We all notice the radical and extreme signs first, don't we?

Which of these two signs do you think will get more people noticing and talking?



or



Interestingly enough, this pic is from the HuffPo. It's sort of a catch 22 for them as it just advertises these signs even further. "air time is their time"

At any rate, that Browning sign has already served its purpose, hasn't it?
It got people talking!!!
Mar 21, 2010 11:50am
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Mar 21, 2010 12:04 PM
Writerbuckeye wrote: And as for your screed above about how all these folks were left to fend for themselves...this country has done a marvelous job of using private charity to help those in need, and quite successfully, too.

Of course, another area this administration is targeting to eliminate is charitable deductions; which will essentially make government the only provider of help to those who need it.

Is that REALLY the America you want to see in the future?
I'd just like to point out that you don't see places like the Salvation Army, Goodwill, Churches, etc.... writing bad checks. They give from the funds that are voluntarily given to them.

(yes there are rare exceptions to the rule)
Mar 21, 2010 12:04pm
believer's avatar

believer

Senior Member

8,153 posts
Mar 21, 2010 12:08 PM
CenterBHSFan wrote:I'd just like to point out that you don't see places like the Salvation Army, Goodwill, Churches, etc.... writing bad checks. They give from the funds that are voluntarily given to them.
Exactly and these organizations disburse voluntary funds efficiently, with compassion, and generally above board.

By contrast government disbursement of taxpayer dollars is prone to red tape, corruption, political gamesmanship, redundancy, and inefficiency.
Mar 21, 2010 12:08pm
Q

QuakerOats

Senior Member

8,740 posts
Mar 21, 2010 12:15 PM
Swamp Fox wrote: I was comparing the original Social Security Act with the current health care bill, and if anyone thinks that the current bill is representative of a "bigger government" bill than was the Social Security Act, I would beg to differ with you. We heard in those days how this bill would be the end of our democratic principles, it would be socialistic, it would even be communistic. Now, 75 years or so later, we still have it and I'm betting if we didn't there would be millions without the ability to live at all. It doesn't seem to be much of an issue with the Conservatives any more. The only thing Republicans of that era could say about the Social Security Act was NO, NO, NO. What was their answer to the elderly, the infirmed, children born into situations that were deplorable and not in any way the fault of the children left essentially to fend for themselves? It reminds me a little of the current paradox in Conservative philosophy concerning abortion. They are absolutely against it, as I am in certain cases, but as far as health care is concerned, all these kids need to do is to get their good for nothing irresponsible parents to give up their cell phone, internet, and a couple of other creature comforts and evidently they can then afford the cost of private insurance for things like childhood cancer, other catastrophic illnesses that strike children, and all the rest.

By the way, although most of you already know this, the Democratic Leadership in Congress has decided not to do what the Republicans did 192 times. They are going to seek passage through a regular vote. I am glad they did this, but I fear for the children that have no protection in this debate. They need more than NO, NO, NO. In the immortal words of Robert Redford in the film "The Candidate"......
"They subsidize trains, they subsidize cars, why not subsidize people"? I would tend to agree.
So the justification for the seizure of 1/6th of the nation's economy is a bankrupt SS system with trillions in unfunded liabilities? Wow. Had THE PEOPLE been able to have their SS contributions put into their own private accounts plus their employers match, they would get back more in annual benefits without tapping the principle, plus they would leave to their children the entire nest egg. Instead the government took the money, co-mingled the funds, issued IOU's, and is actuarially bankrupt and unable to pay promised benefits in the near future. Talk about a pyramid scheme that makes Bernie Madoff look like a piker. It is THE PEOPLE's money and they should have been able to keep it to build a far more lucrative retirement AND leave the principle to their heirs.

Now you and the socialists want to ruin the health care industry after having already ruined the retirement business ?? INSANITY!!!
Mar 21, 2010 12:15pm
jhay78's avatar

jhay78

Senior Member

1,917 posts
Mar 21, 2010 12:30 PM
Swamp Fox wrote: We are talking about passing a Bill to insure that millions of Americans under-insured or not insured at all receive assistance to remedy that injustice.
. . . while the federal government forcefully confiscates the wealth and resources of other citizens, increases its own scope and influence (via the IRS, etc.) into people's lives, and runs up massive debts in the process.
BTW, the "remedy" doesn't take place until 2014. Have fun in Obama's economy for the next 3 years.
Actually, I think it matters a great deal that times have changed in this country massively since the time of Thomas Jefferson, and if he were here today and saw what has happened, I wouldn't want to bet against his support for helping the common man. That's what he wanted us to be.
He certainly wouldn't advocate the forceful confiscation of people's wealth and resources to do it. Walter Williams explains this pretty well (and was mentioned earlier in this thread I believe):
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles/10/IsHealthCareARight.htm

"True rights . . . exist simultaneously among people. That means exercise of a right by one person does not diminish those held by another."
Mar 21, 2010 12:30pm
J

JU-ICE

Senior Member

259 posts
Mar 21, 2010 1:14 PM
THis is just the begining folks: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,589684,00.html

THEN-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE BARACK OBAMA: It is my belief that not just politically but also economically, it's better for us to start getting a system in place — a universal health care system — signed into law by the end of my first term as president and build off that system to further — to make it more rational — by the way, Canada did not start off immediately with a single-payer system. They had a similar transition step.

Transitioning a system is a very difficult and costly and lengthy enterprise. It's not like you could turn on a switch and you go from one system to another.
Mar 21, 2010 1:14pm
S

Swamp Fox

Senior Member

2,218 posts
Mar 21, 2010 1:22 PM
If the health care bill fails, I will be anxious to see what the Republican side, who want to start the whole process over, come up with. My guess, and I don't mean to be offensive, or sarcastic, or anything of the like, but my gut feeling is that we will continue to go as we have, with limited amounts of money. We will continue to have millions who can't get health care because of pre-conditions, we will have good people who have worked their whole lives struggling with choices retired folks who have contributed to our society and our economy their whole lives shouldn't be forced to make. Choosing between medicine or food. We will continue to see people lose their homes and have no place to go because they have spent everything on health care and have now truly become the responsibility of all of us, which is the absolute furthest thing from their minds or their pride. I'm not talking about people whose" $%#@!$%ing lifestyles" (to quote one of our posters)we don't want to support. I'm talking about people who have been to war, people who have earned everything they have and now cannot afford to live with dignity because we are a third world health provider. We probably allowed thousands of people to be in dire financial straights due to the money that was given to some banks and other corporations who took the money and paid multi-million dollar bonusses as a reward for running several corporations into bankruptcy. I guess you folks are right. Enough of this big goverment socialist agenda! The heck with the people who could really use the help and unlike the CEO's, actually deserve it.
Mar 21, 2010 1:22pm
CenterBHSFan's avatar

CenterBHSFan

333 - I'm only half evil

6,115 posts
Mar 21, 2010 1:41 PM
Fox,

Well, see ... here's where the points made are getting a little out of hand. Because I have seen nobody in this thread make the claims that you are stating.
What I HAVE seen is :

- people saying the government is inefficient
- the government is robbing Peter to pay Paul
- government needs to reign its spending
- government has been dirty, sneaky, and underhanded in all aspects of it's management, including voting on government insurance

What I have NOT seen:

- government should let people die in the streets so that some CEO can live the high life
Mar 21, 2010 1:41pm
Writerbuckeye's avatar

Writerbuckeye

Senior Member

4,745 posts
Mar 21, 2010 1:58 PM
Yep.

That's some strawman that doesn't have squat to do with the issue at hand.

THIS BILL is wrong.

Just doing something to do something, IS WRONG.

There's a reason physicians have a screed that says: First do no harm.

Government should operate the same way.

This bill doesn't meet that threshold.
Mar 21, 2010 1:58pm
IggyPride00's avatar

IggyPride00

Senior Member

6,482 posts
Mar 21, 2010 2:14 PM
Today is the day the America you go to be in will be fundamentally different than the one you woke up in.

Who'd have thought that the Scott Brown victory would have galvanized Democrats to push forward on healthcare the way it actually did? When they lost the 60th vote, they suddenly had the excuse to use reconciliation, which had previously not been on the table because of their filibuster proof majority. Without using it, HCR does not happen.
Mar 21, 2010 2:14pm
C

cbus4life

Ignorant

2,849 posts
Mar 21, 2010 2:49 PM
Writerbuckeye wrote: Yep.

That's some strawman that doesn't have squat to do with the issue at hand.

THIS BILL is wrong.

Just doing something to do something, IS WRONG.

There's a reason physicians have a screed that says: First do no harm.

Government should operate the same way.

This bill doesn't meet that threshold.
Well said.

Completely against this bill, at this point.
Mar 21, 2010 2:49pm
ptown_trojans_1's avatar

ptown_trojans_1

Moderator

7,632 posts
Mar 21, 2010 3:23 PM
QuakerOats wrote: Rove schools leftist Plouffe
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2010/03/exclusive-plouffe-and-rove-battle-it-out-over-health-care-reform.html

- the GREED and FORCE of GOVERNMENT is currently on display for all to see.
I actually agree with you on he schooled Plouffe. Rove had his facts and Plouffe was just a political hack who was just spewing the typical talking points.
cbus4life wrote:
Writerbuckeye wrote: Yep.

That's some strawman that doesn't have squat to do with the issue at hand.

THIS BILL is wrong.

Just doing something to do something, IS WRONG.

There's a reason physicians have a screed that says: First do no harm.

Government should operate the same way.

This bill doesn't meet that threshold.
Well said.

Completely against this bill, at this point.
Same here. The costs have far outweighed the benefits. I'm ticked cause he has really taken his eyes off of the economy and especially foreign policy.
Mar 21, 2010 3:23pm
IggyPride00's avatar

IggyPride00

Senior Member

6,482 posts
Mar 21, 2010 4:18 PM
Stupak and his group just announced that they have reached a deal on abortion, and will all be voting for Obamacare.

This should eliminate any doubt that by evening, the Senate bill will be the law of the land. Even if reconciliation fails at this point in the Senate, Obamacare is here by virtue of the House passing the Senate bill.
Mar 21, 2010 4:18pm
IggyPride00's avatar

IggyPride00

Senior Member

6,482 posts
Mar 21, 2010 4:24 PM
Will the stock market open up down big tomorrow as a protest against Obamacare?
Mar 21, 2010 4:24pm
Mr. 300's avatar

Mr. 300

Senior Member

3,090 posts
Mar 21, 2010 5:30 PM
This is not the will of the people.
Mar 21, 2010 5:30pm
IggyPride00's avatar

IggyPride00

Senior Member

6,482 posts
Mar 21, 2010 6:04 PM
Largely overlooked in this bill is the big defeat handed to the banking lobby who was furiously trying to save the free money they were getting through subsidies making student loans.

This was attached at the last minuted last week because Democrats realized that it was never going to clear the 60 vote threshold in the Senate because of the influence of the financial lobbies, so they seized the chance to stick it in legislation they knew would pass.

Lots of power grabbing going on today.
Mar 21, 2010 6:04pm
IggyPride00's avatar

IggyPride00

Senior Member

6,482 posts
Mar 21, 2010 6:38 PM
Stupak thought he had it bad when the liberals were after him. Now he has Redstate in a rage.

Stupak and 30 Pieces of Silver:

Mar 21, 2010 6:38pm
believer's avatar

believer

Senior Member

8,153 posts
Mar 21, 2010 8:03 PM
QuakerOats wrote:Now you and the socialists want to ruin the health care industry after having already ruined the retirement business ?? INSANITY!!!
No, no, no...You have it all wrong.

Insanity is now called "Change We Can Believe In".

Get it right.
ptown_trojans_1 wrote:Same here. The costs have far outweighed the benefits. I'm ticked cause he has really taken his eyes off of the economy and especially foreign policy.
The idiots on Capitol Hill want us to buy off on the notion that this will SAVE us money. Plus I agree that the economy and foreign policy have taken a back seat if they're even in the car. But this is nothing new for the Dems.
Mr. 300 wrote: This is not the will of the people.
When has that mattered to the Unholy Trinity (BHO-Reid-Pelosi)?
Mar 21, 2010 8:03pm
B

Bigdogg

Senior Member

1,429 posts
Mar 21, 2010 8:38 PM
So lets think about this for a while. A majority of politicians are ready to sacrifice there careers to vote for major health care reform. Why would they do such a thing if they did not truly believe it was the right thing to do? Don't bother to respond if you are going to say they are stupid or foolish. I have never met one that was not smart enough to keep there job for a long time.
Mar 21, 2010 8:38pm
IggyPride00's avatar

IggyPride00

Senior Member

6,482 posts
Mar 21, 2010 8:42 PM
BHO is going to sign the Senate Bill supposedly very quickly after it is passed tonight to put it into law, but he is saving the grand ceremony and coronation of Obamacare for when the Senate passes the reconciliation bill supposedly. It should be a true spectacle for all to see considering liberals have wanted socialized medicine for over a century now and. Expect alot of talk coming soon as Obama being the deliverer.
Mar 21, 2010 8:42pm
E

eersandbeers

Senior Member

1,071 posts
Mar 21, 2010 8:44 PM
IggyPride00 wrote: BHO is going to sign the Senate Bill supposedly very quickly after it is passed tonight to put it into law, but he is saving the grand ceremony and coronation of Obamacare for when the Senate passes the reconciliation bill supposedly. It should be a true spectacle for all to see considering liberals have wanted socialized medicine for over a century now and. Expect alot of talk coming soon as Obama being the deliverer.
Unless they changed it, the law won't take effect for 3-4 years. After the Republican landslide in November, they will have time to repeal the bill.

I will be willing to bet anything they won't though.
Mar 21, 2010 8:44pm
tk421's avatar

tk421

Senior Member

8,500 posts
Mar 21, 2010 8:45 PM
This country is going to hell. There is no stopping the government after this. The people don't want this passed, but it will anyway. There is no way the federal government is ever going to stop spending money and taking care of the deficit after this bill. Now they will ram every liberal wet dream bill through Congress the exact same way. Good bye U.S. Hello 30 trillion dollar deficit.
Mar 21, 2010 8:45pm
tk421's avatar

tk421

Senior Member

8,500 posts
Mar 21, 2010 8:47 PM
eersandbeers wrote:
IggyPride00 wrote: BHO is going to sign the Senate Bill supposedly very quickly after it is passed tonight to put it into law, but he is saving the grand ceremony and coronation of Obamacare for when the Senate passes the reconciliation bill supposedly. It should be a true spectacle for all to see considering liberals have wanted socialized medicine for over a century now and. Expect alot of talk coming soon as Obama being the deliverer.
Unless they changed it, the law won't take effect for 3-4 years. After the Republican landslide in November, they will have time to repeal the bill.

I will be willing to bet anything they won't though.
Yeah, I doubt it. When's the last time any Congress ever repealed a welfare program? This isn't going to be repealed ever. We will be stuck with this mess for the rest of our lives. Same as SS/Medicare/Medicaid, etc.
Mar 21, 2010 8:47pm