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How to better protect our schools?

Home ▸ Archive ▸ Serious Business ▸ How to better protect our schools?
Pick6's avatar

Pick6

A USA American

14,946 posts
Dec 18, 2012 11:23 PM
gut;1346965 wrote:More effective than relying on a barely trained novice winning a shootout. This guy would have never been able to enter the building, so it's superior to your idea to give everyone a gun. The first line of defense should ALWAYS be preventing access...can't even believe this is an argument.

It's really not hard. Do you really not believe that buildings can be made secure? Do you really not think there are companies that specialize in this?
I am not advocating giving everybody a gun. Please dont get me mixed up with CC. Turning a school into a high-security prison is not cost effective. You are going to make the first floor a "fortess"..what are you going to do when somebody starts sniping people from outside the building? Or what about when a kid brings a gun into school (1000x more likely than an armed teacher going bat shit crazy)? And please do not say I am reaching, especially when I have REAL LIFE examples to support my argument.
Dec 18, 2012 11:23pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Dec 18, 2012 11:24 PM
WebFire;1346968 wrote:Which is my point. We can all do this all day long and get nowhere. There is no single correct answer.
Agreed. Even if we managed to keep guns from being used on/near students (which is impossible), I doubt it would be long before we'd see bombs making their way inside schools.
Dec 18, 2012 11:24pm
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Dec 18, 2012 11:39 PM
Pick6;1346969 wrote:I am not advocating giving everybody a gun. Please dont get me mixed up with CC. Turning a school into a high-security prison is not cost effective.
Oh bull. Nothing of the sort. Add/extend first floor walls up to about 6' to prevent easy access thru a window - a few hundred bucks materials per classroom and you can probably get volunteer labor. Replace with secure doors. You could retrofit the school for less than 20k - less money than it takes for a security guard for a year. Then nobody is getting in unless they crash their car thru it. You don't have to keep the guy out indefinitely.

Your armed guard or principal isn't doing anything with a sniper, either (and 2-3 guns per, by the way, is hundreds of thousands of guns introduced to the schools). And kids have been bringing guns into schools for years. Try again. I'm only offering a way to prevent the fish in a barrel scenario.
Dec 18, 2012 11:39pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Dec 19, 2012 12:46 AM
kirestananderson;1347009 wrote:Yes, let's enter MORE guns into the equation...
This implies that guns are inherently bad things, which is why more would inherently be bad.

When adding them puts everyone at an even level, I'm not sure it's inherently a bad thing, particularly if those in the equation have been trained to use them properly.

I've not given much thought to this, but logically, I'm open to it.
Dec 19, 2012 12:46am
GOONx19's avatar

GOONx19

An exceptional poster.

7,147 posts
Dec 19, 2012 7:31 AM
kirestananderson;1347009 wrote:Yes, let's enter MORE guns into the equation...
LOL. This dude just re-posts the first reply on every single thread. Best spam ever.
Dec 19, 2012 7:31am
GOONx19's avatar

GOONx19

An exceptional poster.

7,147 posts
Dec 19, 2012 7:40 AM
GOONx19;1347053 wrote:LOL. This dude just re-posts the first reply on every single thread. Best spam ever.
This.
pmoney25;1343897 wrote:Congrats!
kirestananderson;1347017 wrote:Congrats!
FatHobbit;1345621 wrote:a blow job
kirestananderson;1347015 wrote:a blow job
LJ;1346292 wrote:Trying my hardest to avoid it. You talkin about that norovirus going around (shits and pukes)
kirestananderson;1347014 wrote:Trying my hardest to avoid it. You talkin about that norovirus going around (****s and pukes)
sleeper;1345859 wrote:You won't be able to find a cheaper insurance plan than your company plan; I guarantee it.
kirestananderson;1347012 wrote:You won't be able to find a cheaper insurance plan than your company plan; I guarantee it.
LJ;1342747 wrote:Saying now that it was 2 adults. These news outlets are running with so many rumors on this event.
kirestananderson;1347010 wrote:Saying now that it was 2 adults. These news outlets are running with so many rumors on this event.
wes_mantooth;1346542 wrote:Was lucky enough to meet him and his mother on my senior trip...he was awesome in person.
kirestananderson;1347008 wrote:Was lucky enough to meet him and his mother on my senior trip...he was awesome in person.
WebFire;1344992 wrote:Straight stream or fog pattern. Oh wait, wrong site.
kirestananderson;1347006 wrote:Straight stream or fog pattern. Oh wait, wrong site.
mcburg93;1346533 wrote:adsense
kirestananderson;1347004 wrote:adsense
Dec 19, 2012 7:40am
bases_loaded's avatar

bases_loaded

Senior Member

6,912 posts
Dec 19, 2012 7:51 AM
Rotinaj;1346825 wrote:And? You are aware that Europe is a continent and the US is a country right?
SO?

Europe has roughly twice the population of the US and stricter gun laws. If gun control is the answer, wouldn't it be expected that the number of occurrences would be less(in the lefts mind it would be 0).

I like the idea of an air marshall like program. You don't know which schools have them, but you know they exist.
Dec 19, 2012 7:51am
G

Gblock

Dec 19, 2012 10:35 AM
wasnt there a teacher in florida maybe tampa that got fired and shot the principal at a private/catholic school a few years ago?
Dec 19, 2012 10:35am
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Dec 19, 2012 10:40 AM
Gblock;1347164 wrote:wasnt there a teacher in florida maybe tampa that got fired and shot the principal at a private/catholic school a few years ago?
If so, I doubt permitting or prohibiting guns in the school would have altered the outcome. It's not like she's gonna say, "Well, shucks! They won't let me bring my gun to school! How am I supposed to shoot him for firing me?"
Dec 19, 2012 10:40am
Scarlet_Buckeye's avatar

Scarlet_Buckeye

Senior Member

5,264 posts
Dec 19, 2012 11:00 AM
[INDENT]The problem with this society is not guns.....the problem is the breakdown of THE FAMILY. We have far too many baby mommies with 7 different baby daddies whom neither one is "raising" their kids in a loving home / family type environment. Also, don't pawn your kids off on day care for the majority of their day and spend 5 minutes with them. If you have children raise them........Love your children, teach them right from wrong, teach them ethics, teach them manners, teach them respect, teach them the Golden Rule, teach them what a nuturing FAMILY is all about.........THAT will go a long way to solving our society's problems. [/INDENT]
Dec 19, 2012 11:00am
G

Gblock

Dec 19, 2012 11:01 AM
http://www.newser.com/story/141224/fired-fla-teacher-kills-principal-self.html

i brought it up in response to pick 6 saying show where a teacher went bat crazy and shot up the school...while she diidnt hurt students she did shoot the principal...but your right it could happen either way, but increasing the number of teachers with guns will by definition increase the chances. teachers arent always the most stable group:cry:
Dec 19, 2012 11:01am
G

gut

Senior Member

15,058 posts
Dec 19, 2012 11:02 AM
bases_loaded;1347060 wrote: I like the idea of an air marshall like program. You don't know which schools have them, but you know they exist.
If I was a director, I might claim we had the program and not actually bother with it. But I'm not so sure it's the "soft target" aspect of this that's attracting these nuts. I think it's the psychological impact.

This will generate a lot of talk and, ultimately, more political posturing. Fact is your kid is still far more likely to be kidnapped/abducted than shot at school.
Dec 19, 2012 11:02am
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Dec 19, 2012 12:33 PM
Gblock;1347182 wrote:http://www.newser.com/story/141224/fired-fla-teacher-kills-principal-self.html

i brought it up in response to pick 6 saying show where a teacher went bat crazy and shot up the school...while she diidnt hurt students she did shoot the principal...but your right it could happen either way, but increasing the number of teachers with guns will by definition increase the chances. teachers arent always the most stable group:cry:
That's fair. It might indeed raise the number of in-the-moment shootings, but it wouldn't curtail anything premeditated. There are plenty of areas in the US where gun ownership per capita is comparatively low, and yet gun violence is comparatively high. The opposite is also true (Utah is a great example).


Here was an article I found interesting.

From the article:
"I am generally skeptical of gun laws," says Eugene Volokh, a law professor at UCLA. "The theory is that gun laws may prevent crimes of passion—domestic crimes, altercations over traffic incidents, or committed by someone who is otherwise law-abiding but has an anger problem … gun-control laws can potentially do something, but the kind of crime by which they can do the least is a mass shooting."
Dec 19, 2012 12:33pm
G

Gblock

Dec 19, 2012 12:38 PM
i think if you were to put guns in teachers hands you could do it similar to disaster response teams we currently have..certain teachers train for cpr and crisis response you could have a group of people in each school maybe 5-6 who are trained or willing to train who could have guns...more than that seems like over kill
Dec 19, 2012 12:38pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Dec 19, 2012 1:32 PM
Gblock;1347249 wrote:i think if you were to put guns in teachers hands you could do it similar to disaster response teams we currently have..certain teachers train for cpr and crisis response you could have a group of people in each school maybe 5-6 who are trained or willing to train who could have guns...more than that seems like over kill
I'd be absolutely okay with it done this way. Proper training, voluntary, and limited.

For what it's worth, I've heard of a teacher who carried their concealed weapon (for which they had a proper license) into their school. Never was used, and thus, never was an issue, but in the event that this person's school was indeed terrorized by a homicidal gunman, I would have trusted this person's training to use it only if necessary and to do so safely, without putting the wellbeing of students in danger.

For what it's worth, this person is no longer a teacher.
Dec 19, 2012 1:32pm
G

Gblock

Dec 20, 2012 8:00 AM
ccrunner609;1347573 wrote:nobody is promoting all teachers carrying gun without training,
i never said there was anybody promoting that..
Dec 20, 2012 8:00am
Z

Zoltan

Senior Member

1,003 posts
Dec 20, 2012 11:07 AM
BoatShoes;1346905 wrote:Dude...banks in ****ty parts of cleveland have unarmed rent-a-cops.
The bank analogy is not a good one here. Bank security is primarily in place to to alert police as fast as possible so the suspect cannot get away from the bank with money they have taken. That's no help when these school shooters have no intention of getting away, they just want to take out as many people as possible before killing themselves.
Dec 20, 2012 11:07am
tk421's avatar

tk421

Senior Member

8,500 posts
Dec 20, 2012 1:13 PM
one thing that I don't think anyone has said that would actually work, instead of trying to put 1 or 2 people in every school in America, is bullet and shatter proof glass. He didn't go through the doors, he shot his way inside.
Dec 20, 2012 1:13pm
FatHobbit's avatar

FatHobbit

Senior Member

8,651 posts
Dec 20, 2012 1:32 PM
ccrunner609;1347932 wrote:Because that is ridiculous.....it would cost billions of dollars nationwide
Better warm up that printer...
Dec 20, 2012 1:32pm
W

WebFire

Go Bucks!

14,779 posts
Dec 20, 2012 1:33 PM
ccrunner609;1347932 wrote:Because that is ridiculous.....it would cost billions of dollars nationwide
So will the ongoing advanced firearms training that would be needed to arm administrators/teachers.
Dec 20, 2012 1:33pm
GoChiefs's avatar

GoChiefs

Resident Maniac

16,754 posts
Dec 20, 2012 1:50 PM
ccrunner609;1347941 wrote:Unless the teachers unions negotiate more pay for it for members that want to carry
"We care about the safety of our children and want to do whatever we can to make a school safe for them....if we get a pay raise!"
Dec 20, 2012 1:50pm
O-Trap's avatar

O-Trap

Chief Shenanigans Officer

14,994 posts
Dec 20, 2012 1:57 PM
WebFire;1347935 wrote:So will the ongoing advanced firearms training that would be needed to arm administrators/teachers.
A basic CCW class runs roughly, what, $80? Throw in the gun (let's use a CZ-52 for example) which can run about $200 or so, apiece (correct me if I'm wrong).

99,000 public schools K-12 in the United States. We'll say 5 faculty per school can be permitted to carry a firearm. That means up to 495,000 faculty members. $200 for the gun ends up costing $99 million. Tack on the training, which would take us to $39.6 million. So start-up cost directly applied to the change (not including the massive bureaucracy of a department that would likely be formed to plan its implementation, carry out its execution, and monitor it from then on) would be approximately $135.6 million.

Obviously, classes would nee taken periodically, much like many professions, so there would be a recurring cost as well. I don't think the implementation itself would cost in the billions, though, depending on how big its overseeing entity ends up being.

I'm not suggesting that it is the solution, but I just felt like crunching some numbers.
Dec 20, 2012 1:57pm
tk421's avatar

tk421

Senior Member

8,500 posts
Dec 20, 2012 2:11 PM
The people will have to vote on it, just like other school funding. If they think it's a pressing need, then they will be willing to pay for the cost. The feds have no business funding it at all. It's a state and local issue.

How many bus accidents are there? How many children die in accidents on the way to the schools? I don't see the need, I know people are wound up and overreacting because the children, but it will pass eventually. One or two random incidents doesn't warrant the overreaction.
Dec 20, 2012 2:11pm
W

WebFire

Go Bucks!

14,779 posts
Dec 20, 2012 4:38 PM
O-Trap;1347951 wrote:A basic CCW class runs roughly, what, $80? Throw in the gun (let's use a CZ-52 for example) which can run about $200 or so, apiece (correct me if I'm wrong).

99,000 public schools K-12 in the United States. We'll say 5 faculty per school can be permitted to carry a firearm. That means up to 495,000 faculty members. $200 for the gun ends up costing $99 million. Tack on the training, which would take us to $39.6 million. So start-up cost directly applied to the change (not including the massive bureaucracy of a department that would likely be formed to plan its implementation, carry out its execution, and monitor it from then on) would be approximately $135.6 million.

Obviously, classes would nee taken periodically, much like many professions, so there would be a recurring cost as well. I don't think the implementation itself would cost in the billions, though, depending on how big its overseeing entity ends up being.

I'm not suggesting that it is the solution, but I just felt like crunching some numbers.
You guys are fucking nuts if you think the 12 hour CHL class is all these people will need to be adequately trained in a high stress mass shooting scenerio.
Dec 20, 2012 4:38pm
W

WebFire

Go Bucks!

14,779 posts
Dec 20, 2012 4:39 PM
ccrunner609;1347941 wrote:The individual will pay for that and not a burden on the taxpayers. Unless the teachers unions negotiate more pay for it for members that want to carry
So you make the schools have people who carry, and the individuals have to pay? WTF?
Dec 20, 2012 4:39pm