ernest_t_bass;679164 wrote:Are you saying that it is OK for a GOOD teacher, who is old, be let go b/c they make too much money, and just hire a younger one? Districts can now do this, if this passes.

What most people don't understand... THERE ARE WAYS IN PLACE NOW, TO GET RID OF BAD TEACHERS. Most admins just don't want to go through the hassle of it.

Not saying it is OK, but it happens everywhere. When a company has to cut costs and stay profitable they balance the workforce accordingly. If a school can hire 2 kids out of college at the same salary as one good experienced teacher they may do so. Welcome to the real world.

OneBuckeye;679177 wrote:Not saying it is OK, but it happens everywhere. When a company has to cut costs and stay profitable they balance the workforce accordingly. If a school can hire 2 kids out of college at the same salary as one good experienced teacher they may do so. Welcome to the real world.

I'm sorry, but we have to at least admit that, if this does indeed happen, education will take a dive, right? You will have no more "old dogs," and you will be constantly teaching new teachers how to teach. Some "old dogs" need to be out, no doubt. I see MANY flaws in education, but I just don't see collective bargaining as one of them.

With the union stuff... I would like to see more of the money paid in dues go to local issues, and not stateies.

redstreak one;678122 wrote:Especially if you have anywhere from 10 to 25 years in. I am too old to go back to school and find better employment for the amount of education I have. Too young to retire!~ I am not against change, but change for the sake of change makes no sense? Also, will this eventually trickle down to all public employees? Why start with teachers?

Welcome to the private sector of business ...Reality check for the government and teaching employees

Belly35;679181 wrote:Welcome to the private sector of business ...Reality check for the government and teaching employees

It's not just directed at teachers. It's ALL public employees. Teachers may get all the attention here, but it is ALL public employees.

Are we dealing with grownups here or petulant children? Times get a bit tougher so you get demoralized, sulk and don't do your job like you should?

What the hell has happened to pride in doing a good day's work, even when times are tough?

I worked in the public sector for 15 years and saw how the unions have destroyed pride in working hard or any incentive to do better -- because any raises the people were going to get, they were going to get, anyway, just because they'd been there the longest.

That is NOT how you should be providing incentives for people to do better.

At the same time, I saw multiple examples of the union spending what amounted to weeks of time defending employees who should have been fired; would have been fired in the private sector.

I told this story before about a woman who worked for me that was an out and out drunk. Came to work loaded, disappeared and was found at bars during her working hours. The union fought like hell to save her job time after time when she was disciplined -- even while admitting to me that she should be fired (privately, of course).

Yes she was offered rehab, went to it and went right back to drinking. I think she did this a couple times. So far as I know, that woman is still working for the state, and likely still coming to work drunk.

Unions should never have been a part of the public sector for so many reasons -- but perhaps even more compelling than the lack of accountability is the fact that there is no ceiling to what the union can ultimately demand for its workers. Governments aren't like companies where they bring in a set amount of money and if the market is sour, can bring in no more unless workers are more productive. It's too easy to simply raise taxes and claim that if people don't get those raises, they'll be demoralized, not work as well, not answer emergency calls as well, etc.

All that amounts to is a form of blackmailing the taxpayer to get what you want. In the private sector, those threats would simply get your fired.

Some of you have said it yourself.

One problem I have with getting rid of Unions..... what the hell am I going to do with old pallets and 50 gallon drums?

Writerbuckeye;679183 wrote:Are we dealing with grownups here or petulant children? Times get a bit tougher so you get demoralized, sulk and don't do your job like you should?

So, lets compare apples to apples.

I go into your company and tell you are now getting paid less, and have less benefits to do the same job; but I still expect you to be a hardworking, good employee, who gives 100% all the time. Good luck with that.

ernest_t_bass;679165 wrote:Love it!

http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2011/02/12/story-columbus-state-may-require-drug-tests.html

Welfare drug test link.

jc10380;679189 wrote:So, lets compare apples to apples.

I go into your company and tell you are now getting paid less, and have less benefits to do the same job; but I still expect you to be a hardworking, good employee, who gives 100% all the time. Good luck with that.

Private sector workers already work under these conditions. How hard is that to understand.

I am not blackmailing the taxpayer. We request a wage and benefits that are fair. We are not going to strike. We just don't like being "told", this is what you are getting and having no say about it. As a person who brings a set of skills, I don't have the right to negotiate what I am worth? That is what I am doing, just as part of a group.

Again I will say it, after someone calls 911 with an emergency, ask them what they think the people that showed up to help are worth.

Exactly, all that I am saying is that you are not going to do as good of a job. That is the point I am making. It is simple human nature.

OneBuckeye;679191 wrote:Private sector workers already work under these conditions. How hard is that to understand.

I don't think you answered his question. How would YOU react? Would you pay more attention to different things (like my beer driver friend)?

There are certain details that are taken care of now that will no longer be taken care of, and you will not be able to fire the workers b/c they will be doing what their contract states.

ernest_t_bass;679195 wrote:I don't think you answered his question. How would YOU react? Would you pay more attention to different things (like my beer driver friend)?

There are certain details that are taken care of now that will no longer be taken care of, and you will not be able to fire the workers b/c they will be doing what their contract states.

People in my company have recieved pay cuts before. They take them as well as anyone can because they know there are reasons for it and prefer to have a job with lesser pay then none at all. Some people of course may not like it so they found different jobs with different companies.

ernest_t_bass;679195 wrote:I don't think you answered his question. How would YOU react? Would you pay more attention to different things (like my beer driver friend)?

There are certain details that are taken care of now that will no longer be taken care of, and you will not be able to fire the workers b/c they will be doing what their contract states.

Honestly, having lost jobs before due to layoffs and cutbacks, I'd be THANKFUL I STILL HAD A JOB.

Public employees are a spoiled lot, judging from the comments here. You want some say in your pay and benefits? How about using your individual skills and accomplishments to negotiate that pay/benefits rather than the strong arm of a union to hide behind?

Millions upon millions of private sector people do just that every single day and manage to have comfortable lives. How is it public sector folks cannot do the same? Are you admitting that your skill sets or accomplishments are lacking here so you need a union to get what you want?

A level playing field between the public and private sectors is in order here -- because Ohio and the country simply cannot afford to do it any other way without ending up in bankruptcy.

OneBuckeye;679203 wrote:People in my company have recieved pay cuts before. They take them as well as anyone can because they know there are reasons for it and prefer to have a job with lesser pay then none at all. Some people of course may not like it so they found different jobs with different companies.

We have taken pay cuts, pay freezes, etc. But I don't like the fact of taking away our bargaining power. IMO, there is a HUGE difference.

Writerbuckeye;679207 wrote: You want some say in your pay and benefits? How about using your individual skills and accomplishments to negotiate that pay/benefits rather than the strong arm of a union to hide behind?

Like merit pay? Is that the answer for education?

ernest_t_bass;679210 wrote:Like merit pay? Is that the answer for education?

You bet it is. And in government as well.

Writerbuckeye;679212 wrote:You bet it is. And in government as well.

How does a special education teacher make money on a merit based system? A SPED teacher's kids could keep getting worse and worse, with no increase in "test" scores. A core teacher has test results, but school "classes" differ in intelligence. What about elective teachers? Teachers of the Arts?

ernest_t_bass;679208 wrote:We have taken pay cuts, pay freezes, etc. But I don't like the fact of taking away our bargaining power. IMO, there is a HUGE difference.

Of course you don't it takes the power from the employees and gives it to the employer because it gives the employer more flexibility in how it manages its workforce. No one wants less power or say in their pay and benefits, but with the position the government is in now financially they need to have this shift happen.

OneBuckeye;679214 wrote:Of course you don't it takes the power from the employees and gives it to the employer because it gives the employer more flexibility in how it manages its workforce. No one wants less power or say in their pay and benefits, but with the position the government is in now financially they need to have this shift happen.

Can you at least agree that you understand why we don't want it to go? We're going to fight for it!

There is no private counterpart to go to in my job. It is already more competitive than most jobs. So, switching jobs is not a viable option.

jc10380;679226 wrote:There is no private counterpart to go to in my job. It is already more competitive than most jobs. So, switching jobs is not a viable option.

You can't go to a different county or city? Why do you think your job market is so competitive?

OneBuckeye;679233 wrote:You can't go to a different county or city? Why do you think your job market is so competitive?

The way things are set up now, it is competitive. A teacher can have TOO MUCH experience, to be too expensive to hire. My guess is that it is the same in other public positions.

Cities are civil service, which we all know are a crap shoot. Other departments test for their spots. I have taken tons of tests, and most are hiring for 1 position, and they will test 100+ people with all the qualifications. Some departments still use the "good ole boy" method.

Are there ways to set yourself apart? Sure, military helps. Working at the department part time helps if they offer that. I don't have the time for either of these things anymore.

It is the most competitive job market I have ever been a part of. The low turnover numbers do not help either. More jobs will become available over the next 2 years or so because of the DROP program, but it will still be ultra-competitive.

My daughter (Architect) has taken a 10% salary cut last year and the others lost their jobs.
She got her 10% back but only because she was also training in a special graphic software that the firm is now using. She does two jobs now for what she was hire at to be an Architect.
I have taken a salary cut owning my business and so have my employee but they have a job (some lost their job) because of the economy.

Do the government employee and teacher get less when the economy around them is bad?
Do the Unions step in a take a cut like a business owner has to help make pay roll? Will the teacher and gov. employees take less and still provide the same quality product required in manufacturing? They should we have to in the world of private sector. Unions Organization does nothing but takes from the public, their members and gives nothing but financial support to socialist assholes.