Belly35;453969 wrote:Please lets put in the same/same arena:
Three planes load with Muslins, hijacked by racial Christians (can’t think of anyone Christian group that has an interest in 40 virgins, except for 13 year old boys in a youth group) crashes into said building of same/same. Would that Country, Muslims and Islam permit the building of a First Christ of Christ, Non-Denomination Church or Zion Lutheran to be built anywhere? Or would all those Christian Missionary workers within the country be stone to death….

Belly35;453969 wrote:Please lets put in the same/same arena:
Three planes load with Muslins, hijacked by racial Christians (can’t think of anyone Christian group that has an interest in 40 virgins, except for 13 year old boys in a youth group) crashes into said building of same/same. Would that Country, Muslims and Islam permit the building of a First Christ of Christ, Non-Denomination Church or Zion Lutheran to be built anywhere? Or would all those Christian Missionary workers within the country be stone to death….

ptown_trojans_1;453908 wrote:This pretty much sums up my view in a sense. It is so stupid, pointless and counterproductive to our strategy.
http://drezner.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/08/16/you_know_what_let_the_terrorists_win

The truth is that Al Qaeda has been seriously weakened, and that the effect of this kind of debate on the attitude of possible AQ sympathizers is marginal.

Belly35;454059 wrote:When (some people) spews out the words religions freedom, political correctness to avoid the simplest of what is right …Common Sense
I am not advocating that we lower our value, morals and freedom to the standard of other countries. I’m advocating that we raise our Standard to an even higher level of Common Sense and the writing of our founding fathers and the Constitution of the United States.
Islam is not just a religion. It is an entire political, cultural and monetary system designed around “their” so called religion. Islam and its various advocacy groups are trying to garner sympathy and support from Americans who do not fully understand this agenda that hates Christians and has no tolerances for any other religion. Many of you simply dismiss issues surrounding Islam thinking that Muslims are simply exercising freedom of “their” the key word “their” religious rights under the 1st Amendment. This is not true. Islam is abusing and perverting the rights afforded to religions under the 1st Amendment. Should a Culture (not a religion) that hate Christianity be give the freedom under the United State Constitution?

It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it was the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily, the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

CenterBHSFan;454098 wrote:BAB, I might have missed it, but... what's your viewpoints?

BigAppleBuckeye;453308 wrote:For the record, I am totally ok with a mosque being built downtown. Many Muslims died that day as well, and the day we prevent religious freedom is the day NONE of us are Americans any longer.

They will say that it is "not what really happened so it's moot" because they don't see the value in hypotheticals to determine what their true positions are. If had to guess, I doubt you'd see many people protesting that Trinity Church should be ripped down...they just think Islam is fundamentally different than Christianity and cannot get past the invalid inference from terrorists to Islam.

HitsRus;454137 wrote:The hypothetical is completely invalid because we are not at war with radical catholics who ruthlessly attacked us destroying lives and billions of dollars of property. If we were, and there was the remotest of chances that a building could be used to provide cover to other radicals who might contemplate a silmilar attack, then my answer would be the same. No, No, No...on a number of levels....and I'm a practicing Catholic too.


Just like me...some peace loving muslims have expressed their concern( several links posted on this thread)...and just like the community organizer, others on this thread have chosen to ignore those warnings.

The problem really is the hubris of those who ignore the warnings of non radical Islam itself. So confident are they in the 'superiority' of their reasoning they cannot concieve of the idea that the rest of the world doesn't necessarily hold the same values, and hence leave themselves vulnerable. American principle of 'religious freedom' are wonderful and hold much value...TO AMERICANS. Adhering to American ideals is great, but we are at war here with a deceitful and ruthless enemy. It's great to hold to values and ideals, but it is not so great to be stupid and allow even the remotest of possibilty that those ideals be used against us.

CenterBHSFan;454295 wrote:I've mentioned this before in a roundabout way, but I'll say it again, just for clarification purposes

It's amazing how prickly people become when anything can be construed to be offensive to Muslims or the religion of Islam in general; they are quick to be "all over it", defensively trying to point out how very wrong it is to cast aspersions.

But by the same token, it's pretty much blase and trendy to disparage Christianity in general and those ^^ same people will say nothing in defense of the religion or the people who follow it.

It's like people are bending themselves over backwards and inside out to put on a show of how PC they are.
WTF???

Again, I don't give a damn, really, about the proposed mosque. It's very close to ground zero, but not actually considered part of it. Yes, I wonder about what's behind of it all, and perhaps we'll find out those things like who's financing it.

CenterBHSFan;454295 wrote:I've mentioned this before in a roundabout way, but I'll say it again, just for clarification purposes

It's amazing how prickly people become when anything can be construed to be offensive to Muslims or the religion of Islam in general; they are quick to be "all over it", defensively trying to point out how very wrong it is to cast aspersions.

But by the same token, it's pretty much blase and trendy to disparage Christianity in general and those ^^ same people will say nothing in defense of the religion or the people who follow it.

It's like people are bending themselves over backwards and inside out to put on a show of how PC they are.
WTF???

Again, I don't give a damn, really, about the proposed mosque. It's very close to ground zero, but not actually considered part of it. Yes, I wonder about what's behind of it all, and perhaps we'll find out those things like who's financing it.

BigAppleBuckeye;454123 wrote:haha, I assume your question was tongue-in-cheek?

PS, I am enjoying this debate. There is obviously no black and white answer, and even in some of these points that in principal I disagree with, I do find nuggets of info that make me say "hmm, haven't thought of that."

BigAppleBuckeye;454126 wrote:PS Center, just in case, this is my stance, in a quick summary

gibby08;454173 wrote:This is being built 3 blocks away. It's not like they are trying to build it ON Ground Zero(which no one would support)

And for Belly to suggest that Islam is not a real religion is just simply ignorant

BigAppleBuckeye;454303 wrote:Hi Center ... first off, I think you are one of the better posters on this site, and I enjoy your contributions. That being said, not sure if you comment was directed at me, but I don't disparage Christianity, I just wondered why some apparent Christians on this site seem to think that you are not American if you don't worship Jesus, that's all.

There have been several posts insinuating that somehow Muslims cannot be Americans. Which is disheartening. Hopefully I was merely interpreting things wrong or they didn't mean to word it that way.

HitsRus;454382 wrote:Certainly you did not infer that from my post. I quite clearly stated that as a practicing American Catholic, if we were at war with "radical Catholicism" I would be opposed to building anything that might have the remotest possibility of being used by a radical element that I don't agree with.

Several non radical muslims have expressed concerns themselves, and I would think any AMERICAN muslim would be at least understanding as to why such a project in the heart of the most important financial district in the country (an area that has already been attacked) would not be a good idea.
Truly, no one's religious freedom is being denied, as I'm sure there are other worship areas nearby. Arbitrary zoning laws exist everywhere, so it is certainly the city's right to deny permission.

Since some have introduced 'hypotheticals' into this discussion....

If this was a Catholic church that was proposed to be built...and the city denied it citing that it was a business district or some other arbitrary reason, would you demand it be allowed on 'religious freedom' grounds? Ha ha....now doesn't that sound ridiculous?...Yet this is the very thing that some of our leaders are doing! There are plenty of good reasons to deny the mosque a permit to build...not the least of which is the fact that we are in a de facto state of war with some of that group's radical members.
This is not a religious freedom issue...it is a zoning issue. That those in charge of our country are actually involved makes me question their priorities ...as well as their competence and sanity.

HitsRus;454382 wrote: This is not a religious freedom issue...it is a zoning issue. That those in charge of our country are actually involved makes me question their priorities ...as well as their competence and sanity.